Why is Biggie one of the greatest

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 11 years ago '04        #161
TizOnly1 5 heat pts
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 4REAL said:
Yes, I know "Dumbed Down" is a universal term, but I'm talking about it in a music sense. And the way I defined it is the best possible way I can explain it. Jay-Z said he "dumbed down" his music and that he wanted to rap more like Common. He was referring to the type of content that Common's uses and not the type of wordplay or technical skills that he uses. There's many more examples, but I can't really think at the moment.
Just because Hov used the term one time in one context doesn't mean that that's the only way it can be used...

I don't know why we're even discussing this anyway. My point was that if Tupac intentionally dumbed-down/watered-down/held back/whatever his lyrical ability, then that's all we have to judge him on.

We can't just a.ssume he was a lyrical monster, when he didn't prove it. The reasons why he didn't prove it don't matter. Whether he could be a lyrical beast, but chose not to, or whether he simply didn't have the talent don't even matter. What maters is that on wax, Tupac wasn't even close to being the best lyricist. He's really average (even during his time) at rap from a technical aspect.

I'm not saying that technically sound rap is the most important sh*t, but it is an important aspect of being a great rapper, and Pac was just way too average in that aspect. I could run off a list of 10-20 rappers who were better technical MCs in 1995. That's all I'm saying. To be the greatest, you just can't have such an important factor missing from your game. That like if Jordan played no defense.


Last edited by TizOnly1; 09-15-2006 at 12:16 AM..
 09-15-2006, 12:15 AM         #162
Hotboy504 
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 daliff89 said:


that doesnt matter.........subject matter has nothing to do with how u put ur rhymes together........u can talk about the exact same thing as someone else but if u put ur rhymes together better than they did its gonna be a better song.........Pac's 'Dear Mama' was better than that Kanye song 'Hey Mama' or whatever.........they were the same subject but Pac put his together better.....Mos Def is a more socially aware rapper than Biggie was, does that mean he's better as well????
no but mos def isnt a candidate for goat either
 11 years ago '05        #163
4REAL 3 heat pts
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 daliff89 said:


i feel that Big Punisher was the best rapper of all time LYRICALLY.......he wasnt as versatile as Big was, he wasnt as socially aware as Pac, he couldnt tell a story like Nas.........but i feel he had the best lyrics ever..........

Daliff, you've got to becareful here. Because it looks like you are juding on talent/skills a little too much. It's like you're answering who is the "BEST" MC. The "best" is the sole person with the technicalities or hands on in a profession, field, genre, etc. Like hands down, most people if not all people see Jordan as the greatest on the court. The same goes for Tiger Woods. We know Tiger is the "BEST" at playing golf. What I'm asking you is who is the "GREATEST" MC of all time? I MEAN GREATEST at what they do. Like all around we know Ali is the greatest in boxing. What about in hip hop. Do you honestly believe that Pun is the "GREATEST" to ever do it?

And it's even debatable if Big Pun was an MC or a rapper? In fact, I think it's hard to say that Pun was even a true MC.
 11 years ago '05        #164
daliff89 1 heat pts
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 Hotboy504 said:
see if u were as intelligent as u try to make urself seem then u would know that there isn't an a mid point with u. everything is this or that. release dates can be proven. whats so special about that. and if u can see that if someone makes a mistake they can correct it. just cause someone thinks about k!llin all the time doesnt mean they cant become a different person. then u go and say i havent listened to a pac and big and n a while and then u say if i listen then my mind might change. u shouldnt have to keep listen to somethin like 50 times to make a conclusion. u think biggie is better than pac thats ok. but u sayin that if i listen to the albums i might change my opinion tells me that either ur memory isnt that good and/or u can never make up ur mind. the dude wit the statement i thought he was talkin about how he thought pac was better than big not the other way around. EXCUSE ME FOR MAKING A MISTAKE. i guess im an idiot for doin something everyone does everyday.
im saying that my tastes have changed since then......ur telling me that ur taste in music never change??? theres not a song u used to listen to all the time and love that u look back on and say 'y did i like that?' i felt that Big was the better artist lyrically back then.......i still might......but to form a 100% honest opinion i feel personally that i really need to listen to their catalogs again.........thats y u'll never see me post a top 10 anywhere because i dont feel i've thought about it enough......

how is me saying that Big was the better artist LYRICALLY but saying Pac was the better artist OVERALL being 'black and white'??? im saying that from one standpoint Big is better but from a wider view Pac was the better artist......it just happens that the quality that i feel Big was better than Pac at is more important to me than any other quality.........

if i like a person better then ima have a reason for it......theres gonna be no grey area......theres gonna be clear cut reasons y i like them and y i dislike them.......and like i stated above, the area i think Big was better than Pac in matters the most to me.......
 11 years ago '04        #165
TizOnly1 5 heat pts
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 4REAL said:
And it's even debatable if Big Pun was an MC or a rapper? In fact, I think it's hard to say that Pun was even a true MC.
What???

You must not have heard much Pun.

LOL.

What keeps Pun from being a "true MC"?
 11 years ago '05        #166
daliff89 1 heat pts
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 4REAL said:
Daliff, you've got to becareful here. Because it looks like you are juding on talent/skills a little too much. It's like you're answering who is the "BEST" MC. The "best" is the sole person with the technicalities or hands on in a profession, field, genre, etc. Like hands down, most people if not all people see Jordan as the greatest on the court. The same goes for Tiger Woods. We know Tiger is the "BEST" at playing golf. What I'm asking you is who is the "GREATEST" MC of all time? I MEAN GREATEST at what they do. Like all around we know Ali is the greatest in boxing. What about in hip hop. Do you honestly believe that Pun is the "GREATEST" to ever do it?

And it's even debatable if Big Pun was an MC or a rapper? In fact, I think it's hard to say that Pun was even a true MC.
i said it in the post u quoted my friend.......i feel that Pun is the GOAT.........its my opinion.......just like i think Big was the better rapper than Pac...........its my thoughts.....i dont listen to alot of Canibus, once i do then i might feel that he moves up top.........maybe ill listen to some more Roots albums and move Black Thought up there.......i dont know.........but as far as right now goes, Pun is the GOAT.........
 09-15-2006, 12:27 AM         #167
Hotboy504 
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[QUOTE=daliff89]


im saying that my tastes have changed since then......ur telling me that ur taste in music never change??? theres not a song u used to listen to all the time and love that u look back on and say 'y did i like that?' i felt that Big was the better artist lyrically back then.......i still might......but to form a 100% honest opinion i feel personally that i really need to listen to their catalogs again.........thats y u'll never see me post a top 10 anywhere because i dont feel i've thought about it enough......

how is me saying that Big was the better artist LYRICALLY but saying Pac was the better artist OVERALL being 'black and white'??? im saying that from one standpoint Big is better but from a wider view Pac was the better artist......it just happens that the quality that i feel Big was better than Pac at is more important to me than any other quality.........

if i like a person better then ima have a reason for it......theres gonna be no grey area......theres gonna be clear cut reasons y i like them and y i dislike them.......and like i stated above, the area i think Big was better than Pac in matters the most to me.......
[/QUOTE

he goes these comprehension problems again. me sayin the balck, wehite, and gray area has to do wit everything u've said. not just one point. just like we're talkin about how big an audience is for big and pac and u come n say sells mean nothin when i'm provin pac had a bigger following. its like u came n he conversation wit no arms and legs.
 11 years ago '05        #168
4REAL 3 heat pts
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 TizOnly1 said:
I'm not saying that technically sound rap is the most important sh*t, but it is an important aspect of being a great rapper, and Pac was just way too average in that aspect. I could run off a list of 10-20 rappers who were better technical MCs in 1995. That's all I'm saying. To be the greatest, you just can't have such an important factor missing from your game. That like if Jordan played no defense.
My thing is that who says that lyrics is a factor in being a great rapper? I and many people see it as an accessory. It's like being able to dribble a little more or do crossovers and other tricks with a ball. I mean who made that rule? I could understand if you said that he can't freestyle, but you can't say that because I have like a 6 min. freestyle of Pac from before he died. I feel like if you don't know how to freestyle but you claim to be an MC/Rapper then it's a problem.

I mean think about it. Anybody can be a lyricists. All you have to do is take a little bit of time and think and you can come up with great figurative language in your rhymes, but I don't think it's fair to see that just because an MC/Rapper doesn't display it that they lack. He was nice on his first 2 lp's in my opinion, but he chose not to go that route. It's like choosing not to shoot from a certain angle or choosing not to dunk. You can't hold it back against him. I understand you perfectly that he didn't show that talent, but I don't see it as too big of a factor for being one of the greatest.
 09-15-2006, 12:29 AM         #169
Hotboy504 
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 daliff89 said:


i said it in the post u quoted my friend.......i feel that Pun is the GOAT.........its my opinion.......just like i think Big was the better rapper than Pac...........its my thoughts.....i dont listen to alot of Canibus, once i do then i might feel that he moves up top.........maybe ill listen to some more Roots albums and move Black Thought up there.......i dont know.........but as far as right now goes, Pun is the GOAT.........
now answer this. y do u think pun is the goat.
 11 years ago '05        #170
daliff89 1 heat pts
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becuase i didnt read the page before that........that example has nothing to do with a black and white area....it has to do with me not reading the sh*t before i responded.........
 09-15-2006, 12:30 AM         #171
Hotboy504 
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 4REAL said:
My thing is that who says that lyrics is a factor in being a great rapper? I and many people see it as an accessory. It's like being able to dribble a little more or do crossovers and other tricks with a ball. I mean who made that rule? I could understand if you said that he can't freestyle, but you can't say that because I have like a 6 min. freestyle of Pac from before he died. I feel like if you don't know how to freestyle but you claim to be an MC/Rapper then it's a problem.

I mean think about it. Anybody can be a lyricists. All you have to do is take a little bit of time and think and you can come up with great figurative language in your rhymes, but I don't think it's fair to see that just because an MC/Rapper doesn't display it that they lack. He was nice on his first 2 lp's in my opinion, but he chose not to go that route. It's like choosing not to shoot from a certain angle or choosing not to dunk. You can't hold it back against him. I understand you perfectly that he didn't show that talent, but I don't see it as too big of a factor for being one of the greatest.
pac showed great lyrical talent
 11 years ago '05        #172
daliff89 1 heat pts
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 Hotboy504 said:
now answer this. y do u think pun is the goat.
y do u keep asking me to answer questions that i already answered??? i said i felt that Pun was the greatest rapper to ever touch a mic lyrically.......and thats what matters to me.......read the thread before u ask me n e more questions........cuz i might of answered it already.......
 09-15-2006, 12:33 AM         #173
Hotboy504 
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 daliff89 said:
becuase i didnt read the page before that........that example has nothing to do with a black and white area....it has to do with me not reading the sh*t before i responded.........
how am i supposed to know u didnt read. so ur sayin u just read my post and drew a conclusion off of that.
 11 years ago '05        #174
4REAL 3 heat pts
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 daliff89 said:


i said it in the post u quoted my friend.......i feel that Pun is the GOAT.........its my opinion.......just like i think Big was the better rapper than Pac...........its my thoughts.....i dont listen to alot of Canibus, once i do then i might feel that he moves up top.........maybe ill listen to some more Roots albums and move Black Thought up there.......i dont know.........but as far as right now goes, Pun is the GOAT.........

I'm not trying to change your opinions on anything. I want you to reevaluate your stances and how you define certain terms. I want you to look at your criteria.

There is a difference between the "BEST rapper" and the "GREATEST MC" of all time. Do you catch my drift now. You said that Pun is your Goat. But he's the goat of what? Goat rapper or MC? My point is to just look at how you define terms such as "rapper", "MC", "The Best", "The Greatest".

Because I find it hard to believe that such a smart sounding person has Big Pun as the GREATEST MC EVER TO TOUCH THE MIC. I'm saying to think this through and reevaluate those terms I told you to.


Goodnight everybody. I speak to you all tomorrow. Peace to TizOnly, Daliff, and HotRod.
 11 years ago '05        #175
daliff89 1 heat pts
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yes...because a number of people on this site have used 'he sells ___ records' as an argument for who is better........which is y i said 'this is like the 9825894650463584658746359847358946359843596 time i've said this'.........
 09-15-2006, 12:35 AM         #176
Hotboy504 
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 4REAL said:
I'm not trying to change your opinions on anything. I want you to reevaluate your stances and how you define certain terms. I want you to look at your criteria.

There is a difference between the "BEST rapper" and the "GREATEST MC" of all time. Do you catch my drift now. You said that Pun is your Goat. But he's the goat of what? Goat rapper or MC? My point is to just look at how you define terms such as "rapper", "MC", "The Best", "The Greatest".

Because I find it hard to believe that such a smart sounding person has Big Pun as the GREATEST MC EVER TO TOUCH THE MIC. I'm saying to think this through and reevaluate those terms I told you to.


Goodnight everybody. I speak to you all tomorrow. Peace to TizOnly, Daliff, and HotRod.
i dont think he asked u to read threw this thread yet.
 11 years ago '05        #177
4REAL 3 heat pts
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 TizOnly1 said:
What???

You must not have heard much Pun.

LOL.

What keeps Pun from being a "true MC"?
Tomorrow TizOnly. Goodnight man.
 09-15-2006, 12:36 AM         #178
Hotboy504 
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 daliff89 said:
yes...because a number of people on this site have used 'he sells ___ records' as an argument for who is better........which is y i said 'this is like the 9825894650463584658746359847358946359843596 time i've said this'.........
its good to know u look for what i type. do u do that all the time? r u an internet stalker?:wow:
 11 years ago '05        #179
daliff89 1 heat pts
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 4REAL said:
I'm not trying to change your opinions on anything. I want you to reevaluate your stances and how you define certain terms. I want you to look at your criteria.

There is a difference between the "BEST rapper" and the "GREATEST MC" of all time. Do you catch my drift now. You said that Pun is your Goat. But he's the goat of what? Goat rapper or MC? My point is to just look at how you define terms such as "rapper", "MC", "The Best", "The Greatest".

Because I find it hard to believe that such a smart sounding person has Big Pun as the GREATEST MC EVER TO TOUCH THE MIC. I'm saying to think this through and reevaluate those terms I told you to.


Goodnight everybody. I speak to you all tomorrow. Peace to TizOnly, Daliff, and HotRod.
and i respect ur opinion and im glad ur not being a child like alot of people on this site would be.........i really am.........

but i've listened to the artists in my top 5......comprehensively........wether it was last week or last year.....like i said im in the procees of getting more of the 'great MCs' albums and my views might change.........but as of right now they stand where they stand.......
 09-15-2006, 12:37 AM         #180
Hotboy504 
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 CatchinZs said:
the flow is just to sick
biggies?
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