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Why are championship losses held against great players?


 
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 3 months ago '04        #1
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Sir_Burn_Alot 90 heat pts90
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Why are championship losses held against great players?
 

 
Disclaimer: This is NOT a debate about who is the GOAT. But getting perspective on championship losses.

Michael Jordan and Joe Montana are 6-0 and 4-0 in their respective sports. They have absolutely remarkable resumes, undoubtedly. Arguably the GOATS.
My question is this: Why don't we count their losses in earlier rounds before the championship against their resume but we count losses in the championship rounds against other great players?

Montana in perspective:
He won 4 Super Bowls in the 80s and....
-Missed the playoffs once
-Lost in the Wild Card once
-Lost in the Divisional Round twice
-Lost in the NFC Championship twice

image


Jordan in perspective:
-Lost in the First Round 3 times (swept twice)
-Lost in the Conference Semi-Finals once
-Lost in the Eastern Conference Finals twice

image


A few notable players with Finals/Super Bowl losses

Brady (3 losses)
Kobe (2 losses)
LeBron (6 losses)
Magic (4 losses)


When we are having GOAT talk people use the 4-0 and 6-0 narrative to benefit Jordan and Montana and not count their earlier playoff shortcomings.
But when an athlete makes it all the way to the championship and loses it's a blemish. When in fact getting to the championship is a greater accomplishment.


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296 comments for "Why are championship losses held against great players?"

 3 months ago '17        #2
Kingz2 1 heat pts
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I think it’s bc people see it as if you can make it to the championship you are one of the best teams in the league. A lot of players are great but the championship games are what sets a lot of them apart.
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 3 months ago '06        #3
991 40 heat pts40
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Can we close this undercover LeBron Stan thread? He's not the goat and never will be.
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 3 months ago '17        #4
Zazi3 The Beast 147 heat pts147
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The La s*xuals will avoid this thread like someone with a s*xual disease
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 3 months ago '04        #5
TizOnly1 20 heat pts20
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People actually worth listening to don't hold championship losses against anyone.

The Mike argument is disingenuous though, because you're trying to hold losses against Mike back from when he was a pup and didn't have anything close to a competitive team around him. Once he got ONE All Star, he never lost again (aside from the baseball year). You can't craft some deluded semantic argument to get around that.
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 3 months ago '05        #6
kriskross00 131 heat pts131
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Because you dont win anything for getting to the finals..sure it's a great feat to be there but losing in the finals is essentially the same thing as not making them at all...obviously a number 2 seed losing in the finals is different than the last place team not making the playoffs..but the end result is still the same..a loss
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 3 months ago '13        #7
BLACK MAMBA 56 heat pts56
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 TizOnly1 said
People actually worth listening to don't hold championship losses against anyone.

The Mike argument is disingenuous though, because you're trying to hold losses against Mike back from when he was a pup and didn't have anything close to a competitive team around him. Once he got ONE All Star, he never lost again (aside from the baseball year). You can't craft some deluded semantic argument to get around that.
One All star? Pippin was a top 5 player in the 90s and the greatest defender ever

You canít craft some deluded semantic argument to get around that.
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 3 months ago '04        #8
Sir_Burn_Alot 90 heat pts90 OP
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 TizOnly1 said
The Mike argument is disingenuous though, because you're trying to hold losses against Mike back from when he was a pup and didn't have anything close to a competitive team around him. Once he got ONE All Star, he never lost again (aside from the baseball year). You can't craft some deluded semantic argument to get around that.
I agree with the point about MJ completely. He was young. But if Kobe or Bron would have lost in the Finals in their rookie season it would be a blemish no matter how young they were especially if they were starters.
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 3 months ago '19        #9
Moe Lester 
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 TizOnly1 said
People actually worth listening to don't hold championship losses against anyone.

The Mike argument is disingenuous though, because you're trying to hold losses against Mike back from when he was a pup and didn't have anything close to a competitive team around him. Once he got ONE All Star, he never lost again (aside from the baseball year). You can't craft some deluded semantic argument to get around that.
I wouldn't call a 26-27 year old a pup
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 3 months ago '12        #10
KUKOC 5 heat pts
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Cuz it don't mean a thing without the ring

If your team is blessed enough to make it.. Then it's all about what u do when your at the highest level of the game

Only people that have never been athletes would question why it's important to win chips and not lose them
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 3 months ago '04        #11
Sir_Burn_Alot 90 heat pts90 OP
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 kriskross00 said
Because you dont win anything for getting to the finals..sure it's a great feat to be there but losing in the finals is essentially the same thing as not making them at all...obviously a number 2 seed losing in the finals is different than the last place team not making the playoffs..but the end result is still the same..a loss
SEE THATS MY POINT!!! And I agree with you.

I'm not saying getting to the Super Bowl/Finals should be an accomplishment. Its essentially the same as not making it at all. I agree with you.
But why hold it against them? You said it yourself it's a great feat.

If Brady had missed the playoffs completely all 3 years he lost the Super Bowl we'd say he's 6-0.

If LeBron had of missed the playoffs all 6 years he lost in the Finals we'd be saying he's 3-0.

We're basically saying they are better off losing horribly than getting as far as you can and coming up short.
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 3 months ago '04        #12
Sir_Burn_Alot 90 heat pts90 OP
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 KUKOC said
Cuz it don't mean a thing without the ring

If your team is blessed enough to make it.. Then it's all about what u do when your at the highest level of the game

Only people that have never been athletes would question why it's important to win chips and not lose them
I'm not AT ALL questioning why it's important to win championships and not lose them. I'm a*suming you didn't read the original post.

It's perfectly fine to count championship losses. But why not count earlier round losses when they are even less of an accomplishment?

 3 months ago '12        #13
KUKOC 5 heat pts
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Those count too..any non championship loss definitely counts.. I think more so in basketball than the other sports

But in Jordans case.. He never lost in the playoffs as a favorite.. And once he advanced he never went backwards til the wizards.. Once he got out the first round.. He never lost in the first again.. Once he got passed the 2nd.. He never lost in the 2nd again.. Etc
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 3 months ago '18        #14
Jayandy01 
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At a certain point when comparing players you reach a level where all individuals check just about every box. At that point you have to find something that differentiates them (however small that one thing may be). At that level it doesn’t make either player less valuable in the overall view of things, it just makes one slightly better than the other.

To put it in real life terms, let’s say you and 1 other person are both up for the same job. You both have the same degrees, experience, quality references, etc. but one of you made a little bit more profit for the company than the other. That person will most likely get the job.

It doesn’t mean any less of either two people, but at that point you have to find some difference to decide who is at the top.


Last edited by Jayandy01; 02-11-2019 at 09:51 PM.. Reason: Errors made

 3 months ago '17        #15
Rule 336 112 heat pts112
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 991 said
Can we close this undercover LeBron Stan thread? He's not the goat and never will be.
This. These n*ggas so lame man. They basically want us to look at the stats and ignore the championship shortcomings
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 3 months ago '06        #16
Don Kaliko 16 heat pts16
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Because we don't remember the losses, unless we're remembering the winners.
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 3 months ago '04        #17
Sir_Burn_Alot 90 heat pts90 OP
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 991 said
Can we close this undercover LeBron Stan thread? He's not the goat and never will be.
 Rule 336 said
This. These n*ggas so lame man. They basically want us to look at the stats and ignore the championship shortcomings
LeBron Stan thread?


Again, it's not a GOAT debate. I never said ignore championship shortcomings. It's fine to acknowledge them. Just make sure we acknowledge First Round, Wild Card round, 2nd Round, Divisional Round, and conference championship rounds as as shortcomings as well.
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 3 months ago '04        #18
Sir_Burn_Alot 90 heat pts90 OP
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 Don Kaliko said
Because we don't remember the losses, unless we're remembering the winners.
A lot of people only remember championship losses.

 3 months ago '04        #19
slipnslide85 95 heat pts95
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Sometimes we argue about HOW they lost

Lebron for example: 2011 against the Mavs was inexcusable. They were leading in the series, they were about to win another game, but then got too c*cky and lost. Then they proceeded to lose the rest of the series. Not only did they lose, but Lebron went totally ghost by not stepping up in clutch moments.

I can’t bash him for all his other finals losses. 07, he carried a bunch of bums to the finals by himself. 14 spurs had damn near the greatest shooting performance I’ve ever seen by a team: nobody was stopping that sh*t. And finally the warriors losses, he didn’t have real help + the warriors put together nearly unbeatable 2k cheese teams.


Last edited by slipnslide85; 02-12-2019 at 10:03 AM..
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 3 months ago '04        #20
slipnslide85 95 heat pts95
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As Nelly said
“I- am- number one
Two is not the winner and Three (those who didn’t make the finals/championship) nobody remembers”
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 3 months ago '04        #21
Sir_Burn_Alot 90 heat pts90 OP
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 slipnslide85 said
Sometimes we argue about HOW they lost

Lebron for example: 2011 against the Mavs was inexcusable. They were leading in the series, they were about to win another game, but then got too c*cky and lost. Then they proceeded to lose the rest of the series. Not only did they lose, but Lebron when totally ghost by not stepping up in clutch moments.

I canít bash him for all his other finals losses. 07, he carried a bunch of bums to the finals by himself. 14 spurs had damn near the greatest shooting performance Iíve ever seen by a team: nobody was stopping that sh*t. And finally the warriors losses, he didnít have real help + the warriors put together nearly unbeatable 2k cheese teams.
On top of that LeBron's team was the favorite to win that series. I'm with you SOMETIMES it's about how they loss. But most of the time they just hold the lost against the greats.
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 3 months ago '06        #22
991 40 heat pts40
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 Sir_Burn_Alot said
LeBron Stan thread?


Again, it's not a GOAT debate. I never said ignore championship shortcomings. It's fine to acknowledge them. Just make sure we acknowledge First Round, Wild Card round, 2nd Round, Divisional Round, and conference championship rounds as as shortcomings as well.
Look. You are a LeBron fan and that's okay. You can make him your goat all day long but the majority is not going to agree with you. We see this thread for what it is. If he's your goat, then so be it. You won't change the minds of most of the rest of the world.

 3 months ago '16        #23
Saginaw 1 heat pts
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 kriskross00 said
Because you dont win anything for getting to the finals..sure it's a great feat to be there but losing in the finals is essentially the same thing as not making them at all...obviously a number 2 seed losing in the finals is different than the last place team not making the playoffs..but the end result is still the same..a loss
You do win something though. You win your conference. Winning your conference has to be worth something.
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 3 months ago '04        #24
Sir_Burn_Alot 90 heat pts90 OP
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 991 said
Look. You are a LeBron fan and that's okay. You can make him your goat all day long but the majority is not going to agree with you. We see this thread for what it is. If he's your goat, then so be it. You won't change the minds of most of the rest of the world.
Am I a LeBron fan? Sure.
Just like I'm a fan of Jordan fan considering I'm a lifelong Bulls fan.
Kobe's one of my favorite players as well.

Not saying LeBron is the GOAT, but you're dead wrong about the rest of the world. Millennials are carrying the LeBron GOAT narrative into the next decade.

I'm not debating Bron.....my clear cut GOAT is


[pic - click to view]

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 3 months ago '04        #25
slipnslide85 95 heat pts95
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 Sir_Burn_Alot said
On top of that LeBron's team was the favorite to win that series. I'm with you SOMETIMES it's about how they loss. But most of the time they just hold the lost against the greats.
As someone else in the thread said: people’s whos opinion actually matter won’t judge losses like that.

Real fans know Lebron had 0 chance of winning the last 2 finals, but still deserves madd props for going to the finals EIGHT TIMES IN A ROW

Real fans know QBs control less than 50% of a football game, Brady still deserves madd props for starting for the winning team in Super Bowls almost 20 YEARS APART

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