Oct 25 - Neuroscientist sees proof of heaven

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 10-26-2012, 09:41 AM         #61
Sniggit 
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dont know how you guys are interpreting his version of heaven, but by the looks of the article it isnt what seems to be what yall guys are thinking

he even says its like a big consciousness or something, which can make sense and be understood, after all thats one thing we all know exists and is a greatly not yet understood phenomenon a.ssociated with humans with yet many more phenomenons related to it, ie that event where when certain discoveries are made, multiple people make the same discovery at the same time throughout the world yet they are not working together. if consciousness was responsible for the creation of what we see as reality, then when we die it would just as easily create the things mentioned in this article and what each individual would percieve heaven to be. cos i mean, some of the things he said could make sense, but the butterfly bit had me questioning the whole thing haha

n then to say its dmt, well even if that is the reality of what caused his experience, for thousands of years shamans and cultures have used dmt to have spiritual experiences and still continue to do so, so the experience derived from dmt would not rule out god/spirituality and whatnot. there is nothing to say that consciousness cannot leave the body via consumption of certain liquids/foods
 5 years ago '07        #62
nastynoble 6 heat pts
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 Nyuzi said:
If you beleive in nothing, then why do you choose to continue living?
If you believe in an amazing everlasting heaven after death, why do YOU continue living?
 5 years ago '08        #63
slimdogg3325 1 heat pts
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 Dos-effect said:
so because the possibility of your exisistence is more complicated then what you can handle, you choose to beileve that GOD created it all......but who created GOD......oh created himself, out of nothing, in fact when he created himself he called himself GOD......although no idealism of onimpotence existed he was as is.......and then he promptly created a man and a woman from the man's rib.........and blah, blah, blah


Life does not have a reason for existience, it just is......as we learn more and more every day.......we are life and life is us.GOD is not life, he will die when we do(human beings that is as the concept of what HE is cannot exist with out us........ ) LIFE however will remain to evolve and thrive............we need to get out of this silly and archaic way thinking....where GOD is good and the Devil bad......where GOD is all powerful but not before our money which we worship over GOD......we live in a fu*ked up system......and too many of you people are complacent trying to play by their rules.........fu*k their rules, fu*k money and fu*k GOD....its all bullsh*t......wake the fu*k up already
my dude. The more you talk about God the more I think you need him. i dony know about you but I usually dont speak on ”bullsh*t” I dont believe like that.

but you got it all figured out it seems. more power to you
 5 years ago '09        #64
ill 800 64 heat pts64
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 House said:
As previously stated, it could very well just be a DMT trip. It DOES happen you know, your brain releases it when you die as well as when you fall asleep (dreams).


The world that we live in is a cold and lonely place, filled with heartless greedy men. Go by your experiences, not theirs.
absolutely. im very familar with dmt. but a dmt release cannot explain away everything these people experienced
 5 years ago '07        #65
nastynoble 6 heat pts
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 bigmike123456 said:
i dont get why u guys f!ght the notion that there is a higher power. hes not the first person the recall having this experience are they all lying
yeah right? how could a bunch of people all lie? that is just so crazy!!
 5 years ago '07        #66
Ham Rove 3511 heat pts3511
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 nastynoble said:
yeah right? how could a bunch of people all lie? that is just so crazy!!
These same guys who think there is some large conspiracy within the Gov., yet the thought of a group of people being dishonest escapes them when it comes to their religion
 5 years ago '07        #67
nastynoble 6 heat pts
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 ill 800 said:
so even though historians agree there was a jesus christ who was crucified you still want to believe its a fairy tale?
WHERE THE fu*k ARE THESE HISTORIANS ALL AGREEING ON JESUS BEING REAL? HE HAS NEVER BEEN DOCUMENTED OUTSIDE OF RELGIOUS TEXTS, THE OTHER TEXTS WHERE HE HAS BEEN DOCUMENTED HAVE BEEN MADE KNOWN AS FALSE.

Im sorry i just fired up there, i just can't believe what the fu*k you said. where did you go to school sweetheart? you remind me of a 11 year old girl coming out of sunday school.
 10-26-2012, 09:55 AM         #68
Dos-effect 
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 slimdogg3325 said:
my dude. The more you talk about God the more I think you need him. i dony know about you but I usually dont speak on ”bullsh*t” I dont believe like that.

but you got it all figured out it seems. more power to you
In the world we live in where we know that some birds evolved from dinosaurs that roamed on land......whats more plausible, that we evolved from a sudden burst of life that started on this planed trillions of years ago, or we all derived from the creation of a figure in the sky? Im not opposed to believing in a higher purpose.......but religion is an insult to our intelligence..........deep down you know it does not add up....but either your to scared to believe that your existence has no more meaning then your dogs......or your ignorant to acknowledge that unless Jesus was an alien there is no humanly way possible that he walked on water, or that Noah built an Ark that housed every single animal on this planet, Or that Moses held a tablet that was struck by lightning which happen to engrave words into stone.........at some point you have to be absolutely real with yourself.....and question how anyone could believe these things without a shadow of a doubt......and not feel like they are classified nut jobs.....I dont need GOD......what I need is more people to want to change this world for the better instead of believing its just the way that it is because GOD made it this way......We made it this way and its fu*ked......
 5 years ago '07        #69
nastynoble 6 heat pts
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the way i see it is this, him being a neuroscientist is not a good enough reason for anyone to believe he is sincere on the matter. that would be credentialism.

as a scientist he should know that anyone who wants to claim anything it needs to be tested and repeated in a lab and peer reviewed and put under the method of rationality and proof called the scientific method.

also this article does not say anything about this man's belief before this event occured in his life (media spin?).
 5 years ago '07        #70
Playa 70 heat pts70
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 nastynoble said:
If you believe in an amazing everlasting heaven after death, why do YOU continue living?
Well in faiths that promise such things, the stipulation is that you have to live and strive for something good here in order to get there.
 5 years ago '09        #71
ill 800 64 heat pts64
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 nastynoble said:
WHERE THE fu*k ARE THESE HISTORIANS ALL AGREEING ON JESUS BEING REAL? HE HAS NEVER BEEN DOCUMENTED OUTSIDE OF RELGIOUS TEXTS, THE OTHER TEXTS WHERE HE HAS BEEN DOCUMENTED HAVE BEEN MADE KNOWN AS FALSE.

Im sorry i just fired up there, i just can't believe what the fu*k you said. where did you go to school sweetheart? you remind me of a 11 year old girl coming out of sunday school.
yes he has been documented outside of religious texts. do some googling
 5 years ago '08        #72
slimdogg3325 1 heat pts
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 Dos-effect said:
In the world we live in where we know that some birds evolved from dinosaurs that roamed on land......whats more plausible, that we evolved from a sudden burst of life that started on this planed trillions of years ago, or we all derived from the creation of a figure in the sky? Im not opposed to believing in a higher purpose.......but religion is an insult to our intelligence..........deep down you know it does not add up....but either your to scared to believe that your existence has no more meaning then your dogs......or your ignorant to acknowledge that unless Jesus was an alien there is no humanly way possible that he walked on water, or that Noah built an Ark that housed every single animal on this planet, Or that Moses held a tablet that was struck by lightning which happen to engrave words into stone.........at some point you have to be absolutely real with yourself.....and question how anyone could believe these things without a shadow of a doubt......and not feel like they are classified nut jobs.....I dont need GOD......what I need is more people to want to change this world for the better instead of believing its just the way that it is because GOD made it this way......We made it this way and its fu*ked......
ok. what about the people who believe in god but still want to change the world like you do?
 5 years ago '07        #73
nastynoble 6 heat pts
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 ill 800 said:
yes he has been documented outside of religious texts. do some googling
and those have been proven as charlatan acts. lies in other words. googling is easy.

if it has been documented that the savior of the world came to earth dont you think it would be covered by every single historian during the time?

even in the bible the gospel writers can't agree on the same story they tell.
 5 years ago '07        #74
nastynoble 6 heat pts
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 Nyuzi said:
Well in faiths that promise such things, the stipulation is that you have to live and strive for something good here in order to get there.
false, im going to a.ssume you're christian, all you need to do to get to heaven is accept jesus christ as your lord and savior...ANY CHRISTIAN will tell you that.

you can murder, slang, r*pe and whatever besides deny the holy ghost and as long as you accept jesus christ as your lord and savior you are home free.

so again, answer my question because you began making an a.ssumption that atheists dont believe in anything which is wrong but i know that you believe in a heaven and afterlife that is better than this one we live so why the fu*k havent you paid someone to k!ll you yet?!
 5 years ago '06        #75
philly337 20 heat pts20
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 nastynoble said:
the way i see it is this, him being a neuroscientist is not a good enough reason for anyone to believe he is sincere on the matter. that would be credentialism.

as a scientist he should know that anyone who wants to claim anything it needs to be tested and repeated in a lab and peer reviewed and put under the method of rationality and proof called the scientific method.

also this article does not say anything about this man's belief before this event occured in his life (media spin?).
You mean like remote viewing (out of body experience) where ingo swann found concentration camps for our government and told them about a dozen things about Jupiter we did not know about that have all been confirmed true over the last 30+ years but one which I'm betting is true we just haven't confirmed it yet
 5 years ago '09        #76
ill 800 64 heat pts64
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 nastynoble said:
and those have been proven as charlatan acts. lies in other words. googling is easy.

if it has been documented that the savior of the world came to earth dont you think it would be covered by every single historian during the time?

even in the bible the gospel writers can't agree on the same story they tell.
Did Jesus exist?
There is no doubt that the vast majority of historians and scholars have concluded that Jesus did indeed exist. For example, I am not aware of any on my list who think otherwise. here are some quotes:

Bart Ehrman, Youtube interview
"I don't think there's any serious historian who doubts the existence of Jesus …. We have more evidence for Jesus than we have for almost anybody from his time period. ….. We have one author who actually knew Jesus' relatives and knew his disciples - Paul."

The late Michael Grant:
"[That Jesus was a myth] has again and again been answered and annihilated by first-rank scholars .... no serious scholar has ventured to postulate the non-historicity of Jesus."

Marcus Borg, Professor of Religion and Culture at Oregon State University:
"some judgments are so probable as to be certain; for example, Jesus really existed, and he really was crucified, just as Julius Caesar really existed and was a.ssassinated. ….. We can in fact know as much about Jesus as we can about any figure in the ancient world."

James H. Charlesworth, Professor of New Testament Language and Literature. Princeton University:
"Jesus did exist; and we know more about him than about almost any Palestinian Jew before 70 C.E." (Jesus Within Judaism)
"No reputable scholar today questions that a Jew named Jesus son of Joseph lived; most readily admit that we know a considerable amount about his actions and his basic teachings" (Jesus and Archaeology, 2005)

Jeffery Jay Lowder:
"I think that the New Testament does provide prima facie evidence for the historicity of Jesus. It is clear, then, that if we are going to apply to the New Testament the same sort of criteria as we should apply to other ancient writings containing historical material, we should not require independent confirmation of the New Testament's claim that Jesus existed."

Craig Evans:
"Research in the historical Jesus has taken several positive steps in recent years. Archaeology, remarkable literary discoveries, such as the Dead Sea Scrolls, and progress in reassessing the social, economic, and political setting of first-century Palestine have been major factors. .... the persistent trend in recent years is to see the Gospels as essentially reliable, especially when properly understood, and to view the historical Jesus in terms much closer to Christianity’s traditional understanding"

Tom Wright:
"The historical evidence for Jesus himself is extraordinarily good. .... the evidence dovetails together with remarkable consistency, as I and many others have shown in works of very detailed historical scholarship. From time to time people try to suggest that Jesus of Nazareth never existed, but virtually all historians of whatever background now agree that he did, and most agree that he did and said a significant amount at least of what the four gospels say he did and said."

Professor Robert van Voorst ("Jesus Outside the New Testament", p14, 16)
"The theory of Jesus' nonexistence is now effectively dead as a scholarly question. …. Biblical scholars and classical historians now regard it as effectively refuted."

So why are the scholars so sure? Van Voorst gives seven reasons, of which these four are probably the clearest:

The gospels are too early for invention (too many people would have remembered the real facts), and their accurate references to Palestinian geography would not have been possible if the stories were invented later.
No early opponents of Christianity, whether pagan or Jew, ever denied that Jesus truly lived, or even questioned it.
Scholars are generally agreed that references to Jesus in the Roman historian Tacitus (early second century) and the Jewish historian Josephus (late first century) are both genuine, though some parts of Josephus appear to be later additions.
Proponents of the mythical Jesus view have not been able to offer any credible hypothesis that explains the stories of Jesus and the birth of Christianity.

I am only aware of one recognised scholar who concludes otherwise (Robert Price) and one other historian yet to be tested by peer review (Richard Carrier).

It should be noted that to historians, the Bible is not one book, but a collection of documents that are better attested (in terms of the accuracy of the text and the short gap (in historical terms) between the events and the writing. And the viewpoint of the writers is not a problem to historians as almost all ancient documents had a political, philosophical or religious viewpoint, and they are used to taking account of this.

John A.T. Robinson: "The wealth of manuscripts, and above all the narrow interval of time between the writing and the earliest extant copies, make it by far the best attested text of any ancient writing in the world."

Helmut Koester: "Classical authors are often represented by but one surviving manuscript; if there are half a dozen or more, one can speak of a rather advantageous situation for reconstructing the text. But there are nearly five thousand manuscripts of the NT in Greek... The only surviving manuscripts of classical authors often come from the Middle Ages, but the manuscript tradition of the NT begins as early as the end of II CE; it is therefore separated by only a century or so from the time at which the autographs were written. Thus it seems that NT textual criticism possesses a base which is far more advantageous than that for the textual criticism of classical authors."

So we there is a strong scholarly consensus that Jesus existed and we can know significant detail about his life.

Michael Grant (summing up the value of the gospels as evidence):
"In cumulation, these authentic points and others add up to a coherent general impression of Jesus .... the impression remains plausible not only because the personality that emerges is so forceful and individual and satisfying but because it conflicts in a number of ways with what one might have expected to appear in productions of the Church after Jesus' death. .... The consistency, therefore, of the tradition in their [the Gospels'] pages suggests that the picture they present is largely authentic. By such methods information about Jesus CAN be derived from the Gospels."

EP Sanders:
"Historical reconstruction is never absolutely certain, and in the case of Jesus it is sometimes highly uncertain. Despite this, we have a good idea of the main lines of his ministry and his message. We know who he was, what he did, what he taught, and why he died. ….. the dominant view [among scholars] today seems to be that we can know pretty well what Jesus was out to accomplish, that we can know a lot about what he said, and that those two things make sense within the world of first-century Judaism."
an excerpt from something i found
 5 years ago '09        #77
ill 800 64 heat pts64
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So, the verdict of the historians is that Jesus almost certainly existed, and we can know significant details about his life and teachings. Conclusions vary of course, but I have prepared a list based on two eminent non-christian scholars (I have included quotes from a few other scholars to round out the picture):

EP Sanders, an agnostic recognised as a cautious and eminent scholar, prepared lists of facts "almost beyond dispute" in his books, "Jesus and Judaism" and "The Historical Figure of Jesus":

Jesus was born about 4 BCE
He grew up in Nazareth in Galilee
He was baptised by John the baptist
He was a Galilean, and an apocalyptic prophet
He called 12 disciples
He taught in Galilee, and his main theme was the kingdom of God
He gained fame as a healer and exorcist (G Stanton: "Few doubt that Jesus possessed unusual gifts as a healer, though of course varied explanations are offered."; E P Sanders: "I think we can be fairly certain that initially Jesus' fame came as a result of healing, especially exorcism.")
About AD 30 he went to Jerusalem for the Passover and caused a disturbance in the temple
He had a final meal with his followers
He was arrested and interrogated by the Jewish authorities and crucified by the Roman Pontius Pilate
His followers initially fled, then they had resurrection experiences (EP Sanders: "That Jesus' followers (and later Paul) had resurrection experiences is, in my judgment, a fact. What the reality was that gave rise to the experiences I do not know"; Norman Perrin, Uni of Chicago: "The more we study the tradition with regard to the appearances, the firmer the rock begins to appear upon which they are based.")
His followers continued as a movement, believing Jesus would return to establish his kingdom (P J Tomson: "Although he apparently considered himself the heavenly 'Son of Man' and 'the beloved son' of God and cherished far-reaching Messianic ambitions, Jesus was equally reticent about these convictions. Even so, the fact that, after his death and resurrection, his disciples proclaimed him as the Messiah can be understood as a direct development from his own teachings.")

Note that Sanders specifically stated he wrote as a historian and not a theologian, and he does not say he believes Jesus' healings were in fact miracles, nor that the resurrection actually occurred, only what is actually on this list.

The late Michael Grant, also a non-believer and an expert on the Roman period with more than 50 books to his name, deems as historical (In his book "Jesus: an historians review of the gospels") a slightly larger list, which includes in addition:

Welcoming "sinners" was part of his teaching, and he claimed to be able to forgive people's sins ("Jesus introduced a very singular innovation. For he also claimed that he himself could forgive sins.")
He believed his death would be redemptive, and he believed he was inaugurating God's kingdom ("Jesus lived his last days, and died, in the belief that his death was destined to save the human race.")
His tomb was empty, and people believed very early that Jesus had risen from the dead (Jacob Kremer: "by far, most scholars hold firmly to the reliability of the biblical statements concerning the empty tomb.")

Most other scholars I have read would agree approximately with Sanders list, perhaps a few less with Grant's additions.

(Note: G Stanton & PJ Tomson quotes from "The Cambridge Companion to Jesus", edited by M Bockmuehl. N Perrin & J Kremer quotes in P Copan "Will the real Jesus please stand up")

Of course we may each draw our own conclusions about whether Jesus reveals God to us, but something like the above facts must be our basis if we wish to have intellectual rigour and integrity and deal fairly with the best evidence available.
a good analysis
 5 years ago '04        #78
Big War|M 
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all religion aside, this man just entered another state of consciousness, whether it was a DMT trip or not, i don't know, but it definitely sounds like his spirit/soul entered another realm of consciousness...
 5 years ago '07        #79
nastynoble 6 heat pts
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 ill 800 said:
an excerpt from something i found
these are all mostly professors of religious studies fool! do your background checks because they are sure as hell not holistic historians.

they study the history of the bible.

No one has the slightest physical evidence to support a historical Jesus; no artifacts, dwelling, works of carpentry, or self-written manuscripts. All claims about Jesus derive from writings of other people. There occurs no contemporary Roman record that shows Pontius Pilate executing a man named Jesus. All documents about Jesus came well after the life of the alleged Jesus from either: unknown authors, people who had never met an earthly Jesus, or from fraudulent, mythical or allegorical writings.

Why can all those people you have mentioned not produce a single piece of evidence of his physical existence?

somebody lied to you really bad in your upbringing kid.
 5 years ago '07        #80
nastynoble 6 heat pts
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"The consistency, therefore, of the tradition in their [the Gospels'] pages suggests that the picture they present is largely authentic."

from your little except...this guy is using the BIBLE to PROVE what the BIBLE CLAIMS?! did you even read your own sh*t?

is it acceptable for me to use a harry potter book to prove that harry potter is real?
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