Top 5 all time at every position?

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 5 years ago '12        #21
King Jaffe Joe 23 heat pts23 OP
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 I k!ll TREES said:
So double posting is whats hot in bxsc these days



But for the most part i agree with these list


Personally i believe Manu> wade... If manu was the starting shooting gaurd in miami in 06... They prob would have still won...


Shaq and Zo >>>>>
all you have to do is look at the numbers not to mention the eye test. manu is a great scorer and an amazing shooter. but after that he's either decent or bad. no one is going to be saying in 15 years "boy manu was locking those guys down", while wade will go down as one of the best shot blocking guards ever and a great defender. The only thing manu has over wade is rings[he was never the best player though] and shooting.
 5 years ago '11        #22
I KILL TREES 15 heat pts15
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 nameless1 said:
all you have to do is look at the numbers not to mention the eye test. manu is a great scorer and an amazing shooter. but after that he's either decent or bad. no one is going to be saying in 15 years "boy manu was locking those guys down", while wade will go down as one of the best shot blocking guards ever and a great defender. The only thing manu has over wade is rings[he was never the best player though] and shooting.
Yeah he was never the best... but he didnt need to be on those spurs teams... I Believe if manu had a squad like wade and was the star of the team being supported by shaq and zo...He could have got the job done... Look at his international career... If Manu played for any other team in the league as a starter n*gga would be an all star every year... Dude is a beast so is wade... Its just the positions they are in... Think about it if jordan came off the bench n*ggas would still say hes better than kobe...

Manu has a jumper... Thats a plus also... and manu is older than wade... at this point i wouldnt expect him to be locking n*ggas up...

Plus wade wont win another finals mvp again... Unless lebron gets hurt in the finals and wade gets that d whistle sh*t going
 5 years ago '12        #23
King Jaffe Joe 23 heat pts23 OP
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 I k!ll TREES said:
Yeah he was never the best... but he didnt need to be on those spurs teams... I Believe if manu had a squad like wade and was the star of the team being supported by shaq and zo...He could have got the job done... Look at his international career... If Manu played for any other team in the league as a starter n*gga would be an all star every year... Dude is a beast so is wade... Its just the positions they are in... Think about it if jordan came off the bench n*ggas would still say hes better than kobe...

Wade has a jumper... Thats a plus also... and manu is older than wade... at this point i wouldnt expect him to be locking n*ggas up...
manu was never locking people up even in his prime in the mid 00s, wade was. wade beats his career high in every stat except 3PFG%[manu has a higher FG% but he only played 34 games this year, his 2nd best is 47%]. the main difference between wade and manu is defense and fg%. zo was also done at that point, he contributed but he was long removed from his all star days.

you also have to account for the leader that wade is. i watched an 06 heat documentary awhile ago and shaq was talking about how shaq was the leader of the vets, and wade was the leader of the up and comers and they came together. can you see manu leading a team like that?i cant

and wade would have won a fmvp last year if lebron didnt choke
 5 years ago '11        #24
whothebestmc 98 heat pts98
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wade> jerry west

2-5 on the pg list is always gonna be hard to choose the order, you can make arguments for each of them to be moved up or down.

Lebron is better than dr j not sure why that guy is trying to say otherwise, it's kind of laughable.

And for centers I don't think wilt is better than hakeem or shaq.
 5 years ago '12        #25
King Jaffe Joe 23 heat pts23 OP
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 whothebestmc said:
wade> jerry west

2-5 on the pg list is always gonna be hard to choose the order, you can make arguments for each of them to be moved up or down.

Lebron is better than dr j not sure why that guy is trying to say otherwise, it's kind of laughable.

And for centers I don't think wilt is better than hakeem or shaq.
west>wade at this point, wade can overtake him but his durability/longevity is in question. west was elite his entire career[besides rookie year], and if 3 pointers were counted in his prime he'd have a higher ppg total as well. from that era, him and oscar would be the best to translate in the modern era today[along with wilt], they really wouldn't lose much of what made them great. but if wade has like 5 more above average years and wins a ring or two he'll go over west

wilt>shaq for his passing ability and wilt was greater for a longer period. shaq maxed out for about 3 years, was elite for about 8. wilt>hakeem based on accomplishments/accolades, and again passing. Hakeem was also a headcase in the early part of his career so it's not like he has a big advantage over wilt in that department. also wilt was playing iron man minutes, his career MPG is 45.8. shocking
 5 years ago '11        #26
whothebestmc 98 heat pts98
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 nameless1 said:
west>wade at this point, wade can overtake him but his durability/longevity is in question. west was elite his entire career[besides rookie year], and if 3 pointers were counted in his prime he'd have a higher ppg total as well. from that era, him and oscar would be the best to translate in the modern era today[along with wilt], they really wouldn't lose much of what made them great. but if wade has like 5 more above average years and wins a ring or two he'll go over west

wilt>shaq for his passing ability and wilt was greater for a longer period. shaq maxed out for about 3 years, was elite for about 8. wilt>hakeem based on accomplishments/accolades, and again passing. Hakeem was also a headcase in the early part of his career so it's not like he has a big advantage over wilt in that department. also wilt was playing iron man minutes, his career MPG is 45.8. shocking
sorry but wade is better than west, you can't simply just look at his stats and get your face on and think he would average the same now, teams averaged like 125 ppg when he played they average ~95 now. West also managed to lose 8 finals and only win one so wade already has him beat in the department that is held in the highest regard when discussing all time lists.

As for wilt, the same thing applies where people will look at the stats from then and overrate them. Teams scored 125 ppg while only shooting like 40% compared to 96 at like 46% that allows for more points to be scored more rebounds and more a.ssists. You send anybody back there they would average more a.ssists/points/rebounds than they do now. Wilt also managed to have a much higher usage rate than both shaq/hakeem so it's should be no surprise he could do more. Stats from that era are some of the most overrated in sports. Wilts great and it's arguable between him/shaq/hakeem let's leave it at that. But at the end of the day shaq has more rings and they all dominated.


Last edited by whothebestmc; 08-19-2012 at 06:55 AM..
 5 years ago '12        #27
King Jaffe Joe 23 heat pts23 OP
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 whothebestmc said:
sorry but wade is better than west, you can't simply just look at his stats and get your face on and think he would average the same now, teams averaged like 125 ppg when he played they average ~95 now. West also managed to lose 8 finals and only win one so wade already has him beat in the department that is held in the highest regard when discussing all time lists.

As for wilt, the same thing applies where people will look at the stats from then and overrate them. Teams scored 125 ppg while only shooting like 40% compared to 96 at like 46% that allows for more points to be scored more rebounds and more a.ssists. You send anybody back there they would average more a.ssists/points/rebounds than they do now. Stats from that era are some of the most overrated in sports. Wilts great and it's arguable between him/shaq/hakeem let's leave it at that. But at the end of the day shaq has more rings and they all dominated.
are we acting like it was wests fault for that?he won a FMVP when his team lost, he's not known as mr clutch without reason. west had a timeless skillset, he isnt like cousy when there's clearly flaws and he wouldn't do sh*t today. west would succeed in any era. west also put up great playoff # every year besides 72[the year they won too, and it was his worst year in the playoffs]. Wade has a great chance to pass west, and even in 3 years he could, but not now.

Wilt was one of the best passing big men ever[along with sabonis/walton]. shaq was a good passer too, but he wasn't nearly as good as those 3. Wilt was probably the best athlete this league has seen.

[video - click to view]


this was when wilt was out of his prime too.

you can argue that shaq was just as much of a headcase as him, and hakeem was a headcase for the first half of his career. i agree, they're all very close but the problem with shaq is not only was he a headcase, he was injury prone and was out of shape sometimes also[04]. Shaq got swept out of the first round 6 times, his last great year was 05 and he was never the same after 06. wilt has such a big edge in durability over him.

however, there's clearly an argument for shaq>wilt or hakeem>wilt like you said.
 5 years ago '12        #28
SDC17 38 heat pts38
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 Minister said:
dirk wouldn't have done sh*t in the 90s but be a tall n*gga wit a shot
....Isn't that the reason he's great in general? His height and shooting form practically make it to where you can't guard him, he has one of the best mid-range games of all time. He'd be successful in any era, get that sh*t out of here.
 5 years ago '11        #29
whothebestmc 98 heat pts98
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 nameless1 said:
are we acting like it was wests fault for that?he won a FMVP when his team lost, he's not known as mr clutch without reason. west had a timeless skillset, he isnt like cousy when there's clearly flaws and he wouldn't do sh*t today. west would succeed in any era. west also put up great playoff # every year besides 72[the year they won too, and it was his worst year in the playoffs]. Wade has a great chance to pass west, and even in 3 years he could, but not now.

Wilt was one of the best passing big men ever[along with sabonis/walton]. shaq was a good passer too, but he wasn't nearly as good as those 3. Wilt was probably the best athlete this league has seen.


this was when wilt was out of his prime too.

you can argue that shaq was just as much of a headcase as him, and hakeem was a headcase for the first half of his career. i agree, they're all very close but the problem with shaq is not only was he a headcase, he was injury prone and was out of shape sometimes also[04]. Shaq got swept out of the first round 6 times, his last great year was 05 and he was never the same after 06. wilt has such a big edge in durability over him.

however, there's clearly an argument for shaq>wilt or hakeem>wilt like you said.
wade is already better I don't see it going the other way, and wade isn't done.

wade
mpg fg% ft% rpg apg spg bpg ppg
37.2 0.486 0.77 5.1 6.2 1.8 1.0 25.2

west
mpg fg% ft% rpg apg spg bpg ppg
39.2 .474 .814 5.8 6.7 2.6 0.7 27


their #s are close enough to even out giving the knowledge that the play style back then allowed for more points/steals/blocks/assists/rebounds compared to now. Then wade has 2 rings in 3 trys compared to 1 ring in 9. And about the moniker mr. clutch, if he had that finals record now a days he wouldn't even be able to dream about the word clutch.

As far as wilt goes yes he was a great passer but what I'm saying is teams had so many more possessions than when shaq/hakeem played that if shaq/hakeem played with that amount of possessions all their stats would go up as well. Yes shaq has his downsides like being out of shape, but wilt also managed to dominate a league with 8 teams while only bringing home a championship twice. And again his usage rate was a lot higher than shaq's. Yeah you can argue for all three, I just think people should realize that stats from that era can be deceptive before arguing.

Oh and lebron is a better athlete than wilt but that's a whole 'nother argument
 5 years ago '12        #30
King Jaffe Joe 23 heat pts23 OP
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 whothebestmc said:
wade is already better I don't see it going the other way, and wade isn't done.

wade
mpg fg% ft% rpg apg spg bpg ppg
37.2 0.486 0.77 5.1 6.2 1.8 1.0 25.2

west
mpg fg% ft% rpg apg spg bpg ppg
39.2 .474 .814 5.8 6.7 2.6 0.7 27


their #s are close enough to even out giving the knowledge that the play style back then allowed for more points/steals/blocks/assists/rebounds compared to now. Then wade has 2 rings in 3 trys compared to 1 ring in 9. And about the moniker mr. clutch, if he had that finals record now a days he wouldn't even be able to dream about the word clutch.

As far as wilt goes yes he was a great passer but what I'm saying is teams had so many more possessions than when shaq/hakeem played that if shaq/hakeem played with that amount of possessions all their stats would go up as well. Yes shaq has his downsides like being out of shape, but wilt also managed to dominate a league with 8 teams while only bringing home a championship twice. And again his usage rate was a lot higher than shaq's. Yeah you can argue for all three, I just think people should realize that stats from that era can be deceptive before arguing.

Oh and lebron is a better athlete than wilt but that's a whole 'nother argument
those numbers look like they give an advantage to west to me, give west a 3 point line and like i said before, his ppg goes up. and again, west was much durable than wade is. is it an advantage to wade that he can sometimes play through injuries[this year]?yeah, but you also have to worry about him going out for the season. wade's health is just a big question mark to me, and now that he'll likely be the #2 for the rest of his career he won't have a chance to show us what he could do at peak level play again. all he needs is another ring and 3 more above average years and i have no problem with him over west.

and also: if you compare postseason #
Wade: 25/5/6, 48%
West: 29/6/6, 47%

Wilt only had 2 rings because he was playing against all time teams. Russell always had better supporting casts than him. saying that, was it wilt's fault that he choked in some games and checked out when he got his numbers?sure, but is it his fault that his coach decided to keep him out of a game 7 with a not so serious injury for the last 5 minutes, and they lost? Then, after Russell was gone he was stuck playing the Kareem/Oscar Bucks and the Knicks. I obviously don't think he'll put up 50/25 today, but if kevin love can put up 26/13, wilt is getting prime shaq numbers with more a.ssists

and lebron is #2 in my mind
 5 years ago '11        #31
whothebestmc 98 heat pts98
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 nameless1 said:
those numbers look like they give an advantage to west to me, give west a 3 point line and like i said before, his ppg goes up. and again, west was much durable than wade is. is it an advantage to wade that he can sometimes play through injuries[this year]?yeah, but you also have to worry about him going out for the season. wade's health is just a big question mark to me, and now that he'll likely be the #2 for the rest of his career he won't have a chance to show us what he could do at peak level play again. all he needs is another ring and 3 more above average years and i have no problem with him over west.

and also: if you compare postseason #
Wade: 25/5/6, 48%
West: 29/6/6, 47%

Wilt only had 2 rings because he was playing against all time teams. Russell always had better supporting casts than him. saying that, was it wilt's fault that he choked in some games and checked out when he got his numbers?sure, but is it his fault that his coach decided to keep him out of a game 7 with a not so serious injury for the last 5 minutes, and they lost? Then, after Russell was gone he was stuck playing the Kareem/Oscar Bucks and the Knicks. I obviously don't think he'll put up 50/25 today, but if kevin love can put up 26/13, wilt is getting prime shaq numbers with more a.ssists

and lebron is #2 in my mind
I said in the post the numbers do give the advantage to west, I have explained it several times. I said the #s even out when you consider the fact that teams were scoring almost 30 more points per game with much more possessions allowing for more points/rebounds/assists/steals/blocks etc. If wade played with the same amount of possessions and usage rate that west had his #s would go up the same goes for anybody. Where as people from that eras #s would go down maybe not insane drops or gains but a decent amount.

The same applies for their playoff #s.

Lot's of great players played against all time greats, that's not really a boost to their resume. And when there is only 8 teams in the league the teams are bound to have a lot of talent and meet up with each other a lot. But again I can understand anybody putting wilt ahead of everybody as long as they aren't simply trying to use the stats that are way too overrated from that era as their argument. I don't see any argument for west>wade unless you were just blindly looking at stats though.

and
 5 years ago '12        #32
King Jaffe Joe 23 heat pts23 OP
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 whothebestmc said:
I said in the post the numbers do give the advantage to west, I have explained it several times. I said the #s even out when you consider the fact that teams were scoring almost 30 more points per game with much more possessions allowing for more points/rebounds/assists/steals/blocks etc. If wade played with the same amount of possessions and usage rate that west had his #s would go up the same goes for anybody. Where as people from that eras #s would go down maybe not insane drops or gains but a decent amount.

The same applies for their playoff #s.

Lot's of great players played against all time greats, that's not really a boost to their resume. And when there is only 8 teams in the league the teams are bound to have a lot of talent and meet up with each other a lot. But again I can understand anybody putting wilt ahead of everybody as long as they aren't simply trying to use the stats that are way too overrated from that era as their argument. I don't see any argument for west>wade unless you were just blindly looking at stats though.

you said they were close, but yeah. and it's not "blindly" looking at stats, it tells alot of the story. even if you take the eye test, even though you can barely find footage of west you can tell he was ahead of everyone on the court besides oscar. he made alot of his career taking shots from behind the arc.

the only thing wade has over west is rings, and when you see that west won a FMVP when his team lost it tells you that he deserved the name mr clutch. im not saying he deserves no blame for going 1-8, but it was never his fault that his team lost the series. west made the all defensive team 4/5 times as well[introduced in 1969]. West was just missing alot of things in that era. A 3 point line, awards, luck, victim of the era. It didn't help him that his running mate in Baylor was inefficient either.

And some people believe Russell is the #2 best player ever or even the GOAT, so Wilt playing against him[and getting the # he did] was a feat. Take a look at Shaq's best year
30/14/4/3 bpg on 57%.

You don't think Wilt could match that, or do better? Likewise with Shaq going back in his era, can easily see him getting 50/25.

As for the LeBron/Wilt thing, teams were asking wilt to come back in his mid 40s/early 50s, I don't see that happening with Bron. but
 5 years ago '08        #33
V.R. Nabor 1 heat pts
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Iverson is better than wade... This is science
 5 years ago '12        #34
King Jaffe Joe 23 heat pts23 OP
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 V.R. Nabor said:
Iverson is better than wade... This is science
:hartwt f:
 5 years ago '04        #35
kb2602 
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my top 5

pg
1.magic
2.oscar
3.isiah/stockton=tie
4.isiah/stockton=tie
5.payton/kidd/cousy

sg
1.jordan
2.kobe
3.west
4.drexler
5.wade

sf
1.bird
2.pippen
3.dr j
4.havlicek
5.worthy/baylor/rodman


pf
1.duncan
2.malone
3.barkley
4.dirk
5.mchale
with pettit a close 6

center
1.russell
2.kareem
3.wilt
4.hakeem
5.moses malone/shaq/robinson


Last edited by kb2602; 08-19-2012 at 07:39 PM..
 5 years ago '12        #36
ThePainkiller 347 heat pts347
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Wade isn't top 5.
KG isn't top 5.
Pippen should be higher than Lebron.
Reggie Miller isn't on the list.

 5 years ago '12        #37
King Jaffe Joe 23 heat pts23 OP
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 ThePainkiller said:
Wade isn't top 5.
KG isn't top 5.
Pippen should be higher than Lebron.
Reggie Miller isn't on the list.

you think reggie miller is better than wade?
pippen is baby lebron, lebron before lebron I would say. lebron however does/did everything better than him besides defense[and the gap isn't that big]
duncan is the only clear cut person ahead of KG, you have arguments for Dirk/Malone/Barkley, and that's about it.
only people clearly better than wade are MJ and Kobe, arguments for West[I think he's better] and that's it
 5 years ago '12        #38
King Jaffe Joe 23 heat pts23 OP
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 kb2602 said:
my top 5

pg
1.magic
2.oscar
3.isiah/stockton=tie
4.isiah/stockton=tie
5.payton/kidd/cousy

sg
1.jordan
2.kobe
3.west
4.drexler
5.wade

sf
1.bird
2.pippen
3.dr j
4.havlicek
5.worthy/baylor/rodman


pf
1.duncan
2.malone
3.pettit
4.mchale
5.barkley

center
1.russell
2.kareem
3.wilt
4.hakeem
5.moses malone/shaq/robinson
there's no way petitt/mchale are better than KG. Petitt has huge question marks about his era[same with cousy], and McHales longeivity was sh*t. KG blows him out of the water in that.

Worthy better than LeBron?Havilcek better than LeBron?Rodman?Only SF better than LeBron is Bird, and this is coming from a Knicks fan.

PGs are pretty much on point but cousy would suck today. No shot and couldn't dribble with his left hand. SG's too, but Wade>Drexler. Centers too, but I'd switch Hakeem and Shaq
 5 years ago '12        #39
ThePainkiller 347 heat pts347
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 nameless1 said:
you think reggie miller is better than wade?
pippen is baby lebron, lebron before lebron I would say. lebron however does/did everything better than him besides defense[and the gap isn't that big]
duncan is the only clear cut person ahead of KG, you have arguments for Dirk/Malone/Barkley, and that's about it.
only people clearly better than wade are MJ and Kobe, arguments for West[I think he's better] and that's it
Reggie Miller was the motherfu*king Hitman.
AI was the answer, he was better than Wade. He lead a bunch of nobodies to the finals other than Eric Snow and an old Mutumbo.
 5 years ago '12        #40
King Jaffe Joe 23 heat pts23 OP
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 ThePainkiller said:
Reggie Miller was the motherfu*king Hitman.
AI was the answer, he was better than Wade. He lead a bunch of nobodies to the finals other than Eric Snow and an old Mutumbo.


comparing their best years

player A: 31/5/4/3[spg] on 42%
Player B: 30/8/5/2/1 on 49%
Player C: 25/4/4 on 51%

Player B gives you everything, A gives you scoring and steals but on terrible efficiency, and C only gives you scoring

And Iverson had larry brown and the sixth man of the year that year as well. not to mention, from 99-03 the east was pathetic. Iverson is one of my favorite players ever but his efficiency was awful. I'm not basing everything on stats, but even with the eye test Wade beats him. Miller was a one way player throughout his career, and now he's not even the best at what he did throughout his entire career. ray allen had a better career than him
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