Kobe Bryant - "I can be a legitimate 2-guard now."

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Props Slaps
 6 years ago '04        #81
youngmic 407 heat pts407
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 P. Dedos said:
I Move with Semi Zip Zip Thru Ur City... The law cant get me the Lord Gotta Get me.. I Make sh*t Hot and Lay Low to a Fizzy... U Think u know 50 u dont know 50 In The S550 the 44 with Me!!!


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 6 years ago '08        #82
slimdogg3325 1 heat pts
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lol @ these n*ggas goin at kobe like he reads this sh*t
 6 years ago '06        #83
S0uthernScience 60 heat pts60
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Kobe Bryant - "I can be a legitimate 2-guard now."

iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight
 03-24-2012, 12:17 AM         #84
SeaJaiye 
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5-17, 1-7 from 3 yea hes legit now huh??



 6 years ago '10        #85
Nautilus O 18 heat pts18
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He meant to say legitimate 2nd option

Back to the good ol days for 24

Sessions for MVP
 6 years ago '05        #86
GUNIT-FINEST 
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 SeaJaiye said:
5-17, 1-7 from 3 yea hes legit now huh??



n*gga with a legit pg and 2 best 7ft in the league i would love to see your bi*ch a.ss heat in the finals. i know you would have more excuses for bron. can u tell me what happen last finals for the heat again . and before u say it yes we did lose in the 2nd round but we was going for A fu*kING 3 PEAT AND HAD WON BACK TO BACK WHAT YOUR EXCUSES FOR BRON CHOCKING
 6 years ago '06        #87
philly337 20 heat pts20
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 Nautilus O said:
He meant to say legitimate 2nd option

Back to the good ol days for 24

Sessions for MVP
Don't you mean 4th option
 03-24-2012, 12:30 AM         #88
SeaJaiye 
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 GUNIT-FINEST said:
n*gga with a legit pg and 2 best 7ft in the league i would love to see your bi*ch a.ss heat in the finals. i know you would have more excuses for bron. can u tell me what happen last finals for the heat again . and before u say it yes we did lose in the 2nd round but we was going for A fu*kING 3 PEAT AND HAD WON BACK TO BACK WHAT YOUR EXCUSES FOR BRON CHOCKING
ignoring the topic of the thread like kobe ignores his teammates quit ur bi*chin...........ur boi still played like sh*t. this like his 3rd game in a row after ppl were saying he was just having an off night hes a streaky volume shooter, not elite, etc.

dont compare bron to him, disrespectful to the king
 6 years ago '06        #89
PG-13 126 heat pts126
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 SeaJaiye said:
5-17, 1-7 from 3 yea hes legit now huh??



 6 years ago '10        #90
Nautilus O 18 heat pts18
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 philly337 said:
Don't you mean 4th option
We all know what he should be

But like a white girl in a hotel room you dont tell kobe no
 6 years ago '09        #91
thegoldenhero 3 heat pts
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 Goldies4s said:
1. Kobe Bryant, LAL 28.7
2. Kevin Durant, OKC 27.6
3. LeBron James, MIA 27.2
4. Kevin Love, MIN 25.7
5. Russell Westbrook, OKC 23.8

RK PLAYER GP PPG FGM FGA FGM FGA FG% 2PM 2PA 2P% PPS FG%

79 Kobe Bryant 47 28.7 10.2 23.7 480 1113 .431 410 875 .469 1.21 .463

Only person on this list that might out perform him in the fourth is KD...only person on this list with a ring other than him...oh yeah, NO ONE!!!! who would you want on your team
2-5 all score more efficiently tho
 6 years ago '04        #92
A.G 27 heat pts27
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 Nautilus O said:
Where posting a lot of words automatically is considered ether

The primary ball handler the last 12 seasons? Do you know what the tenets of the Triangle Offense actually are? The concept of floor spacing and ball movement within the offense? Kobe is a black hole on offense, once the ball comes his way he is going to eat it regardless. Either he is looking to score or he will drive and draw attention and dump it to a big.

Kobe's been playing off the ball his entire career EXCEPT when he wants to create iso situations. Kobe is not a catch and shoot guy, he operates off the post (I dare you to act like that hasnt been a staple in the Lakers offense), he catches the ball off of screens (where he usually goes into an iso off the catch instead of just shooting it), and of course pick and roll.

All that nonsense about backdoor cuts and screens were exactly what they ran in the Triangle when he had the most dominant Big Man in the league create those opportunities for him. But we all know he wanted to handle those responsibilities by himself and wound up getting punished by the Suns in the playoffs for it

Lakers fans act like Derek Fisher was in a wheel chair his whole career. The purpose of a PG in the Triangle Offense is to initiate the offense not distribute the ball among the bigs. That occurs naturally in the flow of the offense IF YOU USE THEM. If you are jacking up 30 shots you are not using the two All stars you have down low effectively. That's Kobe's problem.

Michael Jordan played with Ron Harper and BJ Armstrong as his starting point guards. Along wih Randy Brown, Steve Kerr, and a bunch of other guys coming off the bench who didn't strike fear off the dribble. The PG in a triangle should be a good spot up shooter not a drive and dish guy. That responsibility falls on........... that's right the off guard. Or 2 guard for the idiots out there.

If Kobe wants to be a "real 2 guard" in Mike Brown's offense, he should be playing like Mo Williams did in Cleveland. Apparently he thinks Ramon Sessions can play Lebron's role and initiate and create the offense for the team and he can just run the baseline looking for shots or get iso's when called for him. That's cool but Mo Wiliams only averaged 13 shots per game in Cleveland and he didn't play with 2 All Star Bigs who should each be getting 15-17 attempts per game.

So in your words "log the fu*k off and think about the stupid sh*t you just posted"
Yeah, I'm well versed in the "tenets" of the triangle. You're confusing a player's disposition with his role in the offense. Kobe is a shoot-first player who has been asked to play as the main distributor in the triangle.

If you knew anything about the offense, you'd know that the roles AREN'T concrete and the players are essentially interchangeable. Kobe has rarely been able to play off the ball in the triangle. Operating in the post is not playing off the ball, and most possessions he's not catching the ball off screens, he's using the screens as the ballhandler. And as for pick & roll, the Lakers have RARELY used Kobe as the roll man on the P&R and he's either used it to pass the ball or draw attention attention away from himself as the PRIMARY BALLHANDLER.

Even with Shaq, the triangle wasn't based around backdoor cuts and other off-ball actions. The Lakers were doing that minimally in 99-00 when Kobe was more of a complementary player, but for the most part since Kobe's emergence as a dominant player, the Lakers-era triangle has either been based around the high post sets (with Gasol & Kobe operating in the post) or the deep clear-out post plays with Shaq in there.

Derek Fisher was never a great PG, and he wasn't even a regular starter for the Lakers' first 3 titles. If you knew as much as you claim, you'd know that the PG in the triangle does not play the same role as the PG in many offenses today. That's why Phil Jackson coached teams have never had point guards who were ball dominant, or even cared about any of their abilities except for if they can defend and knock down shots.

Michael Jordan played with Scottie Pippen, who played the distributor role in the Bull-era triangle. Randy Brown, Steve Kerr, and how much "fear" they strike off the dribble is inconsequential when they weren't tasked with the responsibility to handle and distribute the ball. The most they were required to do was occasionally bring the ball up and pass it to either the opposite wing to get the triangle action started and make their cut to either the strong side orner corner or the weak side of the ball.. Scottie Pippen's main responsibility was to initiate the offense, not Michael Jordan. This was even more prominent in the 2nd threepeat.

Mike Brown's offense in LA isn't the same as what he was doing in Cleveland. What the fu*k are you watching? Mike Brown's offense in Cleveland was pick & roll centric with a ton of high screens because of the Cavs having big men who could shoot and the fact that they had a lot of spot-up shooters. The Lakers offense is primarily played in the post, and they haven't used many pick & rolls at all this year because of their lack of outside shooting and the fact that they can't space the floor as well.

Matter of fact, the guy who designed a large part of the Lakers' offense, Ettore Messina, was never with the Cavaliers when Mike Brown was coaching.

How about you learn what you're talking about next time and try again.



 Nautilus O said:
Didn't even get to page 3 but if you wanna play we'll play.....

Kobe was not the "facilitator", if you knew anything about the triangle you would know that the "facilitator" is not the guy who takes all of the shots. In Chicago Scottie was the "facilitator" because the purpose of the triangle is to maintain 3 points to go to all times. Again this is why Derek Fisher was a perfect fit in the triangle. Lamar was the "facilitator" in the last few years which is why they operated the offense the best when he was on the floor because his game is similar to Scotties on the offensive ends. Kobe is ball dominant because he shoots. His offensive talent would let him dump the triangle and do his own thing. Sometimes it works but the reason why he'll never win without Phil is because they always won because of the Triangle. The team was built for the triangle When you have:

C- Bynum
PF-Gasol
SF-Odom
SG-Kobe
PG-Fisher

And they wanna call this n*gga the GOAT????

Kobe's expecting Sessions to run the offense, but if thats the case, where is your spot up shooter coming from? Mike Brown doesn't run the triangle. We've seen Mike Brown's offense it consist of Kobe taking 30 shots. Nothing is going to change that unless Kobe wants to change. I hope Kobe feels like he can be a legit 2 guard now, we should see more 30 for 30 nights from the old man


And please find the quote where Phil Jackson said that. We live in a youtube and google world, you can't quote a n*gga and not have the source. Context is everything.
I'll just quickly address this too..

First of all, don't preface your incorrect statement by saying "if you knew anything about _________". The facilitator isn't limited by shot attempts, nor is there a rule stating whether or not he should be the guy taking the shots. Technically the guy who has the best shot takes it, whether it's the guy who initiates the offense, the guy who sets up in the post, or the guy waiting for the pass in the corner. Derek Fisher was a good fit for the triangle when he played well because he hit his jump shots. That's the extent to his value. Lamar rarely was asked to play facilitator in the offense because he couldn't handle it. Look back to the 05-06 season and the 06-07 season. Phil TRIED to make him the Pippen for the offense, but he couldn't handle it. He wasn't able to make the right decisions or the proper entry passes or the right reads as the primary ballhandler. Then when Gasol game along, Phil was able to run the offense through Pau and use Lamar as a cutter.. Then ditched the offense for the most part when Lamar was coming off the bench with the younger guys.

The team was built for the triangle on offense, yet they didn't have good floor spacing and 4 of the players operate with the intention of getting in the paint. It doesn't work and it makes the team too easy to defend.. Not to mention they weren't stopping anyone either.

And here's your quote.

2001 playoffs, when asked to compare Kobe to Michael: "Kobe's become the floor leader of a basketball team that was kind of looking for that nature of a player, who could not only be a scorer, but also be a playmaker or consistently make big plays at critical times. So it was very important for Kobe to step into that role that he was envisioned at. I've always held the bar up very high for Kobe, and he's not only reached that bar, but he's jumping over the top of it right now."

More comparison and contrast: "I think it's the best that I've ever seen a player of mine play with an overall court game. I'm asking him to do so much, and he's accomplishing it. I never asked Michael to be a playmaker. That's the greatest player that I've ever had, that I could consider the greatest player in the game, and I never asked him to be a playmaker in those terms. I asked him to be playmaker when he was doubled or tripled. But Kobe has to set up the offense, to advance the ball, to read the defense, to make other players happy, and he's doing a great job of that."


Last edited by A.G; 03-24-2012 at 01:16 AM..
 6 years ago '10        #93
Nautilus O 18 heat pts18
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Before Laker Stans come in screaming Ether lets break down your response

 A.G said:
Yeah, I'm well versed in the "tenets" of the triangle. You're confusing a player's disposition with his role in the offense. Kobe is a shoot-first player who has been asked to play as the main distributor in the triangle.

If you knew anything about the offense, you'd know that the roles AREN'T concrete and the players are essentially interchangeable. Kobe has rarely been able to play off the ball in the triangle. Operating in the post is not playing off the ball, and most possessions he's not catching the ball off screens, he's using the screens as the ballhandler. And as for pick & roll, the Lakers have RARELY used Kobe as the roll man on the P&R and he's either used it to pass the ball or draw attention attention away from himself as the PRIMARY BALLHANDLER.
Kobe was asked to be the "facilitator" when Shaq was there, which is what I alluded to already when I said he had the most dominant player in the league creating opportunities for him. Operating in the post is "playing off the ball" no player in the league brings the ball up the court and takes it to the post himself. If you watched Shaquille operate or bynum or gasol, you would see the best post opportunities come on the "second" triangle or of the ball. Secondly, you must not know anything about basketball besides the day it took you to write that post and try to research something you are not well versed in.

If you've ever watched a late possession or situations where kobe wants an iso, he often starts down low and runs off a screen or two to create some space. Mostly because teams are trying to keep him from the ball by playing between him and the ball so he needs to create space to do so. Same reason why he's never the pick man in a pick and roll because his man wont leave him to help, especially with Fisher or Metta as the ball handler. When the lakers DID run P&R with Phil, of course kobe was the one with the ball because the player with the ball has to be able to shoot, drive or pass. Why would he ever screen for another player? Also the lakers rarely used p&R with Phil because it doesn't really fit the concept of the triangle.


 A.G said:
Even with Shaq, the triangle wasn't based around backdoor cuts and other off-ball actions. The Lakers were doing that minimally in 99-00 when Kobe was more of a complementary player, but for the most part since Kobe's emergence as a dominant player, the Lakers-era triangle has either been based around the high post sets (with Gasol & Kobe operating in the post) or the deep clear-out post plays with Shaq in there.
What offense is based primarily off of backdoor cuts besides a Princeton or UCLA styled offense? The Triangle creates back door opportunities, and off the ball actions because of the spacing of the floor and the focus of the defense depending on what "triangle" is being used. A key facet of the triangle is the ability to "see" the cut. The triangle gives you a ton of freedom to make a "play" but if you get it wrong you fu*k it all up. Which is why so many players struggle with the concept of it. You make a cut that you think is a good idea, and all of a sudden the ball swings back your way and you are not there and Phil is standing up screaming. You are not slight wrong, you are completely wrong. If you are using a C/SF/ PG triangle on the right side of the court, a down screen from a PF for a SG can create either a skip pass jumpshot or an easy layup for the PF if his man leaves to defend the SG from the pass. The opportunity for these type of plays are ever present in a triangle offense, but it doesn't mean its based on it.

And basically you saying the triangle uses high post and low post sets........ you just repeating what I already wrote

 A.G said:
Derek Fisher was never a great PG, and he wasn't even a regular starter for the Lakers' first 3 titles. If you knew as much as you claim, you'd know that the PG in the triangle does not play the same role as the PG in many offenses today. That's why Phil Jackson coached teams have never had point guards who were ball dominant, or even cared about any of their abilities except for if they can defend and knock down shots.

Michael Jordan played with Scottie Pippen, who played the distributor role in the Bull-era triangle. Randy Brown, Steve Kerr, and how much "fear" they strike off the dribble is inconsequential when they weren't tasked with the responsibility to handle and distribute the ball. The most they were required to do was occasionally bring the ball up and pass it to either the opposite wing to get the triangle action started and make their cut to either the strong side orner corner or the weak side of the ball.. Scottie Pippen's main responsibility was to initiate the offense, not Michael Jordan. This was even more prominent in the 2nd threepeat.
So you just gonna restate my argument and write a whole bunch words that you've been researching all day? I mean if you really take what I wrote and put it next to these paragraphs I could have you suspended for plagiarism. So let me ask you this...what are you proving here? Because it sounds like your saying a PG is not the primary ball handler, but they bring the ball up the court and are expected to hit the open shot.....which is exactly what I said. WORD FOR WORD Basically Fisher was one of the best options for the triangle.

 A.G said:
Mike Brown's offense in LA isn't the same as what he was doing in Cleveland. What the fu*k are you watching? Mike Brown's offense in Cleveland was pick & roll centric with a ton of high screens because of the Cavs having big men who could shoot and the fact that they had a lot of spot-up shooters. The Lakers offense is primarily played in the post, and they haven't used many pick & rolls at all this year because of their lack of outside shooting and the fact that they can't space the floor as well.

Matter of fact, the guy who designed a large part of the Lakers' offense, Ettore Messina, was never with the Cavaliers when Mike Brown was coaching.

How about you learn what you're talking about next time and try again.
So let me see here the lakers have A) A big man that can shoot (Gasol), B) Spot up shooters (Blake, Fisher, bum a.ss barnes, Troy Murphy, the rookie from Charleston or whereever) and Bynum and Gasol avg 25.8 shots per game to 23.8 from Kobe alone. So the game is not played in the post and if you have heard Gasol and Bynum complain all year about them not getting enough touches then you should just stop now.

Also if you knew anything about offensive basketball you would know that the main reason for the lakers frustration with Mike Brown's offensive sets were that they were so P&R dominant that it did not work well with the way Bynum and Gasol could operate in the post. Because as I mentioned before the Triangle isn't really built for P&R because it breaks the "triangle". Screeners screen and then find their spot in the triangle, they dont roll to the rim instinctively. Kobe loved it because he could have the ball in his hands much more that he could in Phils offense. Bynum and Gasol hated it, which is why Kobe and Fisher held a team meeting to listen to THEIR concerns.




 A.G said:
I'll just quickly address this too..

First of all, don't preface your incorrect statement by saying "if you knew anything about _________". The facilitator isn't limited by shot attempts, nor is there a rule stating whether or not he should be the guy taking the shots. Technically the guy who has the best shot takes it, whether it's the guy who initiates the offense, the guy who sets up in the post, or the guy waiting for the pass in the corner. Derek Fisher was a good fit for the triangle when he played well because he hit his jump shots. That's the extent to his value. Lamar rarely was asked to play facilitator in the offense because he couldn't handle it. Look back to the 05-06 season and the 06-07 season. Phil TRIED to make him the Pippen for the offense, but he couldn't handle it. He wasn't able to make the right decisions or the proper entry passes or the right reads as the primary ballhandler. Then when Gasol game along, Phil was able to run the offense through Pau and use Lamar as a cutter.. Then ditched the offense for the most part when Lamar was coming off the bench with the younger guys.

The team was built for the triangle on offense, yet they didn't have good floor spacing and 4 of the players operate with the intention of getting in the paint. It doesn't work and it makes the team too easy to defend.. Not to mention they weren't stopping anyone either.
I dont know if I should waste my time showing you statistical evidence of how wrong you are but since you really dont know what the fu*k you are talking about I'll hold on to it just in case you feel like responding. But in essence the "faciltator" should not be talking the most shots in a game. The role of the facilitator is to initiate the offense by creating opportunities or begin the motion of the triangle. If you ever watched Pip he would sometimes bring the ball down the court, throw it in the post and cut through to the other side, where he would begin to create a second triangle. If you watched Lamar during the championship years he would do the SAME DAMN THING. I mean if you played NBA 2k10 they would even inbound to Odom in the game even with Fisher on the floor

And I would take more time to completely tear your argument apart but I'll leave it with this. Do you know why Lamar came off the bench? Because out of all the Lakers he was the only one who could not only initiate the offense, he could play either side of the P&R, he could post up smaller players, lose bigger players off the dribble, start the fast break and most importantly he could cut and play off the ball. Not sure if you know but that's the same exact thing that scottie pippen brought to the bulls. Lamar came off the bench because unlike in Chicago, Phil had two big men he could use in the same vein as he did Shaq. Lamar played better with only one of the "bigs" on the floor because they would cloud the space he needed to operate effectively.

oh and just in case you think otherwise


[video - click to view]


Watch Fisher "initiate" and then see Odom "facilitate" with the dribble drive

[video - click to view]


And even more proof of my point. Watch Odom "initiate" and set up Kobe to get the iso off of a hand off, which is essentially a ball screen, and them watch Odom "initiate" the play, and use the screen to finish off of the drive.


[video - click to view]




 A.G said:
And here's your quote.
And just like I said context is everything. he said he asked Kobe to be a playmaker or "facilitator" in 2001... why? Because the ball should have been going through Shaq, as he was the most important part of the triangle. So he asked Koe to do that, because he never had to ask Mike to do that because of Pippen. Michael just naturally was able to understand where he could find his teammates in his attempt to score, where as Pippen was looking to do so.


There's also game stats I can pull to prove to you that when Kobe took on the role of the "facilitator" the amount of shots he took dropped immensely. But you dont know enough about this game to keep responding to me. So this is the second time I'm telling you to "log the fu*k off and think about the stupid sh*t you just posted"
 6 years ago '04        #94
A.G 27 heat pts27
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 Nautilus O said:
Before Laker Stans come in screaming Ether lets break down your response



Kobe was asked to be the "facilitator" when Shaq was there, which is what I alluded to already when I said he had the most dominant player in the league creating opportunities for him. Operating in the post is "playing off the ball" no player in the league brings the ball up the court and takes it to the post himself. If you watched Shaquille operate or bynum or gasol, you would see the best post opportunities come on the "second" triangle or of the ball. Secondly, you must not know anything about basketball besides the day it took you to write that post and try to research something you are not well versed in.
Playing facilitator is the complete opposite of having someone else create opportunities for you. Playing facilitator means you're creating the opportunities. I saw your post just that night and quickly made a post to address it, while I saw you in the thread when I had posted it and fell asleep while you were writing your response for an hour and a half.


If you've ever watched a late possession or situations where kobe wants an iso, he often starts down low and runs off a screen or two to create some space. Mostly because teams are trying to keep him from the ball by playing between him and the ball so he needs to create space to do so. Same reason why he's never the pick man in a pick and roll because his man wont leave him to help, especially with Fisher or Metta as the ball handler. When the lakers DID run P&R with Phil, of course kobe was the one with the ball because the player with the ball has to be able to shoot, drive or pass. Why would he ever screen for another player? Also the lakers rarely used p&R with Phil because it doesn't really fit the concept of the triangle.
Ok... This doesn't really do say anything to prove that Kobe was not the main distributor in the triangle. The offense ran through him. He was responsible for creating opportunities for others and for himself, there's no debating that. And for the record, Kobe has been used as the pick guy (see 4th quarter of game 3 of 2010 NBA finals where he repeatedly uses Kobe as screener for Fisher)

What offense is based primarily off of backdoor cuts besides a Princeton or UCLA styled offense? The Triangle creates back door opportunities, and off the ball actions because of the spacing of the floor and the focus of the defense depending on what "triangle" is being used. A key facet of the triangle is the ability to "see" the cut. The triangle gives you a ton of freedom to make a "play" but if you get it wrong you fu*k it all up. Which is why so many players struggle with the concept of it. You make a cut that you think is a good idea, and all of a sudden the ball swings back your way and you are not there and Phil is standing up screaming. You are not slight wrong, you are completely wrong. If you are using a C/SF/ PG triangle on the right side of the court, a down screen from a PF for a SG can create either a skip pass jumpshot or an easy layup for the PF if his man leaves to defend the SG from the pass. The opportunity for these type of plays are ever present in a triangle offense, but it doesn't mean its based on it.
Since when does an offense have to be primarily based off backdoor cuts for the opportunity to come up? You've taken an example of an EASY basket I've said Kobe now has the opportunity to get, and completely twisted it to basically convince yourself that it's an argument you have to refute. No sh*t the triangle creates the opportunity on occasion, except as the guy who was again, responsible for setting up other players, usually he's either in the post and he's the one that has to create the basket for others, or when the offense ran through Gasol or Bynum, he was on the weak side of the triangle. That's simply how the offense worked to create spacing.


And basically you saying the triangle uses high post and low post sets........ you just repeating what I already wrote



So you just gonna restate my argument and write a whole bunch words that you've been researching all day? I mean if you really take what I wrote and put it next to these paragraphs I could have you suspended for plagiarism. So let me ask you this...what are you proving here? Because it sounds like your saying a PG is not the primary ball handler, but they bring the ball up the court and are expected to hit the open shot.....which is exactly what I said. WORD FOR WORD Basically Fisher was one of the best options for the triangle.
You're clearly a person who is delusional and think you know much more than you really do.


So let me see here the lakers have A) A big man that can shoot (Gasol), B) Spot up shooters (Blake, Fisher, bum a.ss barnes, Troy Murphy, the rookie from Charleston or whereever) and Bynum and Gasol avg 25.8 shots per game to 23.8 from Kobe alone. So the game is not played in the post and if you have heard Gasol and Bynum complain all year about them not getting enough touches then you should just stop now.

Also if you knew anything about offensive basketball you would know that the main reason for the lakers frustration with Mike Brown's offensive sets were that they were so P&R dominant that it did not work well with the way Bynum and Gasol could operate in the post. Because as I mentioned before the Triangle isn't really built for P&R because it breaks the "triangle". Screeners screen and then find their spot in the triangle, they dont roll to the rim instinctively. Kobe loved it because he could have the ball in his hands much more that he could in Phils offense. Bynum and Gasol hated it, which is why Kobe and Fisher held a team meeting to listen to THEIR concerns.
Oh my god, the Lakers sets were pick & roll dominant? The biggest issue with the offense was that it was just an offense where the ball is dumped in and it creates essentially an iso situation nearly every single time, whether it was in the post or on the perimeter. The majority of the time the Lakers ran pick & roll was with Kobe in the 4th (and it was still rare)
Since acquiring Ramon Sessions, the Lakers have run more pick & rolls than they have all season. Blake, Fisher, Murphy and Goudelock are/were all poor shooters this year. The Lakers were last in 3 point shooting at one point and none of those players apart from Blake & Fisher were able to crack the rotation on a regular basis.


I dont know if I should waste my time showing you statistical evidence of how wrong you are but since you really dont know what the fu*k you are talking about I'll hold on to it just in case you feel like responding. But in essence the "faciltator" should not be talking the most shots in a game. The role of the facilitator is to initiate the offense by creating opportunities or begin the motion of the triangle. If you ever watched Pip he would sometimes bring the ball down the court, throw it in the post and cut through to the other side, where he would begin to create a second triangle. If you watched Lamar during the championship years he would do the SAME DAMN THING. I mean if you played NBA 2k10 they would even inbound to Odom in the game even with Fisher on the floor
First of all, I guess I made a mistake to use the term "facilitator" because it's actually a role Phil Jackson gave Kobe from time-to-time. The offense for the most part ran primarily ran through Kobe and it was his responsibility to either score the ball or to make the play for his teammates. Just bringing the ball up the court is not the same as running the entire offense. Fisher, Artest, Blake and Odom have all done the same thing to create the first triangle and then make their cut. This is one of the main sets that Phil Jackson uses in the triangle.

And I would take more time to completely tear your argument apart but I'll leave it with this. Do you know why Lamar came off the bench? Because out of all the Lakers he was the only one who could not only initiate the offense, he could play either side of the P&R, he could post up smaller players, lose bigger players off the dribble, start the fast break and most importantly he could cut and play off the ball. Not sure if you know but that's the same exact thing that scottie pippen brought to the bulls. Lamar came off the bench because unlike in Chicago, Phil had two big men he could use in the same vein as he did Shaq. Lamar played better with only one of the "bigs" on the floor because they would cloud the space he needed to operate effectively.
Lamar came off the bench for partly those reasons, and because playing him as a starter would just screw up the spacing with Bynum and Gasol in there as well.
When he was in there, the offense mainly ran through Gasol.
Phil had him in his early years in LA and he couldn't take to the "Pippen role", so he had to give a large part of that responsibility to Kobe.
Needless to say, you're talking about a case where Kobe isn't on the floor, and the main argument is that he was the one responsible for being the distributor in the offense.

oh and just in case you think otherwise

OK.. And?

Watch Fisher "initiate" and then see Odom "facilitate" with the dribble drive
You call that Odom facilitating? Please. These are simple sets.


And even more proof of my point. Watch Odom "initiate" and set up Kobe to get the iso off of a hand off, which is essentially a ball screen, and them watch Odom "initiate" the play, and use the screen to finish off of the drive.

Wow.. You were really reaching for some hard-hitting plays there. "Initiating" the offense is not a big deal. In this play Kobe is still playing on the ball and it's still his job to either shoot it or pass it off. Not to mention neither of these plays are really sets of the triangle offense.

I've never seen such ineffective use of video "proof" in my entire life.


And just like I said context is everything. he said he asked Kobe to be a playmaker or "facilitator" in 2001... why? Because the ball should have been going through Shaq, as he was the most important part of the triangle. So he asked Koe to do that, because he never had to ask Mike to do that because of Pippen. Michael just naturally was able to understand where he could find his teammates in his attempt to score, where as Pippen was looking to do so.


There's also game stats I can pull to prove to you that when Kobe took on the role of the "facilitator" the amount of shots he took dropped immensely. But you dont know enough about this game to keep responding to me. So this is the second time I'm telling you to "log the fu*k off and think about the stupid sh*t you just posted"
Really? You can tell me the exact game that Kobe was given the role of facilitator and his shot attempts for each of them? You do realize that his shot attempts are not indicative of his role on a game by game basis, right?

And I'll say my main argument again, Kobe has RARELY been able to play off the ball and have other players create for him. Usually it has been him who has to create for others. Last night's game & the Wednesday game vs the Mavericks were perfect examples of what I'm talking about with him being able to play off the ball and not having to create for others. He shot poorly last night, but he rarely had to handle the ball and was getting easy shots throughout the game.

In the past, despite his poor night and the fact that he's not a great ballhandler, he would have to bring the ball up, either have to isolate or create an opportunity for another player. Ramon Sessions was doing that. In essence, his primary responsibility now is to get the ball and make a shot or pass it off. That's what he means by being a legitimate 2-guard. Meaning he doesn't have to distribute within the offense, or handle the ball as much, drawing attention away from him and allowing him to be able to play off the ball.

He has NOT been playing off the ball for the majority of his career, as even with Shaq on the Lakers, a large part of the offense ran through Kobe being a primary distributor within the offense and a main scoring option.

Don't quote my entire fu*king post, because you're not getting it at all. I'm not talking about backdoor cuts, triangle "tenets" or verbology that has nothing to do with the main point whatsoever.

Seems like you're more concerned with what is and isn't "ether" than making an actual point.


Last edited by A.G; 03-24-2012 at 10:23 AM..
 6 years ago '10        #95
Nautilus O 18 heat pts18
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 A.G said:
Playing facilitator is the complete opposite of having someone else create opportunities for you. Playing facilitator means you're creating the opportunities. I saw your post just that night and quickly made a post to address it, while I saw you in the thread when I had posted it and fell asleep while you were writing your response for an hour and a half.
I'ma keep it simple since you just repeat what I say alot and try to make it seem like I'm wrong. Facilitator is not creating the opportunities, its make the right passes to start the motion within the triangle, encouraging the movement of the triangle and understanding where you fit in within the triangle to keep it consistent. Opportunities are created through ball movement, rotation, and reading defense to find open spots.


 A.G said:
Ok... This doesn't really do say anything to prove that Kobe was not the main distributor in the triangle. The offense ran through him. He was responsible for creating opportunities for others and for himself, there's no debating that. And for the record, Kobe has been used as the pick guy (see 4th quarter of game 3 of 2010 NBA finals where he repeatedly uses Kobe as screener for Fisher)
In Shaq's years there the offense was not run through Kobe, actually Tex wanted Kobe to be more of a facilitator but Kobe has more offensive game than Pip had, so he basically had two players within the offense that could play outside the triangle in Shaq and Kobe. A lot of the lakers possessions back then were dumps to shaq to let him operate in the post. The plus side of this was he could dump off because of the double teams. And Kobe sets screens but not in P&R situations, he's not going to lose his defender in a P&R which again is what I was saying.


 A.G said:
Since when does an offense have to be primarily based off backdoor cuts for the opportunity to come up? You've taken an example of an EASY basket I've said Kobe now has the opportunity to get, and completely twisted it to basically convince yourself that it's an argument you have to refute. No sh*t the triangle creates the opportunity on occasion, except as the guy who was again, responsible for setting up other players, usually he's either in the post and he's the one that has to create the basket for others, or when the offense ran through Gasol or Bynum, he was on the weak side of the triangle. That's simply how the offense worked to create spacing.
Thats not true at all. In the triangle offense and even in those video I showed, anybody can be a cutter and find an open spot. The initiator can make a cut and get a bucket, the facilitator can make a cut and get a bucket. There is no "guy" setting up other players, its based off of constant ball movement. Pippen encourage the movement of the offense.

Which is why when you say Kobe is the primary ball handler for the last 12 seasons you are completely wrong. Lebron was a primary ball handler in Cleveland, Wade was a primary ball handler in Mia, Tracy McGrady was a primary ball handler, Allen Iverson was a primary ball handler. Guys like Melo, Kobe, Durant, Paul Pierce, and Dirk are not primary ball handler even tho they get a ton of iso sets.



 A.G said:
You're clearly a person who is delusional and think you know much more than you really do.



 A.G said:
Oh my god, the Lakers sets were pick & roll dominant? The biggest issue with the offense was that it was just an offense where the ball is dumped in and it creates essentially an iso situation nearly every single time, whether it was in the post or on the perimeter. The majority of the time the Lakers ran pick & roll was with Kobe in the 4th (and it was still rare)
Since acquiring Ramon Sessions, the Lakers have run more pick & rolls than they have all season. Blake, Fisher, Murphy and Goudelock are/were all poor shooters this year. The Lakers were last in 3 point shooting at one point and none of those players apart from Blake & Fisher were able to crack the rotation on a regular basis.
So why do you think they made the trade for Sessions? Maybe because the P&R offensive sets they were running were not working? If the ball was just dumped in the post, why does Kobe average almost the same amount of shots as Bynum and Gasol combined? Session been there two weeks, you think they had time to overhaul the whole offense? No they brought in a guy that fit the system they were running better. Even a dummy can see this is how Mike Brown wanted to run his offense.

Which is why Kobe said "I can be a legit 2 guard" because if you look at the best P&R Coach (D'antoni) those P&R sets work best with the point guard (Nash, Lin). Derek Fisher is not a good P&R option thats not his game. Kobe handled the p&r so far this year, and thats why he said what he did. Not because he's been the primary ball handler for the last 12 years.

Only problem is the Sg in D'antoni offense shouldn't be taking 30 shots ever.


 A.G said:
First of all, I guess I made a mistake to use the term "facilitator" because it's actually a role Phil Jackson gave Kobe from time-to-time. The offense for the most part ran primarily ran through Kobe and it was his responsibility to either score the ball or to make the play for his teammates. Just bringing the ball up the court is not the same as running the entire offense. Fisher, Artest, Blake and Odom have all done the same thing to create the first triangle and then make their cut. This is one of the main sets that Phil Jackson uses in the triangle.

Actually the term facilitator is what Tex Winter used to describe pippen's role with the bulls. And never was it a part of the description to score the ball or make a play. The facilitator is the one who makes the triangle go. it doesnt have to be an a.ssist, it could be the pass two passes before the actual a.ssist. It doesn't have to be a bucket, it could be a down screen that opens up a passing lane that leads to an open shoot. You got this video game mindset that the "facilitator" to be dribbling around for 24 seconds waiting for someone to cut, thats not the triangle at all.

 A.G said:
Lamar came off the bench for partly those reasons, and because playing him as a starter would just screw up the spacing with Bynum and Gasol in there as well.
When he was in there, the offense mainly ran through Gasol.
Phil had him in his early years in LA and he couldn't take to the "Pippen role", so he had to give a large part of that responsibility to Kobe.
Needless to say, you're talking about a case where Kobe isn't on the floor, and the main argument is that he was the one responsible for being the distributor in the offense.
The offense has never been "run" through Gasol primarily even you don't believe that. You can run a play for ANY Player within the triangle based on how you want to use them. And you say he couldn't take the Pippen role? Lamar had his best statistical seasons as a laker in Phil's first two years there. Once they acquired Gasol his numbers dropped a little, but in those first two season is also when Kobe was out there taking 30 shots a game nightly. And Odom and Kobe played on the floor together all the time, The lakers 4th quarter lineup during their recent championship runs always included Odom unless he was struggling.

 A.G said:
You call that Odom facilitating? Please. These are simple sets.
And that's where your whole argument crumbles, because thats exactly what facilitating is in a triangle offense. Its not dribbling around to wait for someone to get open, its forcing the movement to allow everyone else to find there spots, that simple dribble to a skip pass forced the defense to respond and then creates lans for the next pass. The triangle is in essence a simple set, youjust have to maintain a triangle and not cloud it up and naturally thats where players fu*k it up.


 A.G said:
Wow.. You were really reaching for some hard-hitting plays there. "Initiating" the offense is not a big deal. In this play Kobe is still playing on the ball and it's still his job to either shoot it or pass it off. Not to mention neither of these plays are really sets of the triangle offense.
The first play was kobe coming off ball to get a hand off. If you can't see that then you just don't understand basketball. Did he come and set a screen for odom? No, because that would be an on ball screen. The ball handler used his position to screen for kobe to allow him to get the ball. This creates an iso where Kobe then was looking to score. Which goes back to my first post where I told you that kobe uses his screens to create iso situations as opposed to catch and shoot.

And the fact that you can't see the triangle in both sets tells me everything I need to know.


 A.G said:
Really? You can tell me the exact game that Kobe was given the role of facilitator and his shot attempts for each of them? You do realize that his shot attempts are not indicative of his role on a game by game basis, right?
Games 4&5 of the thunder series Game 4: 10 shots 3 ast-

Game 5: 9 shots 7 asts

Games 1, 2, 3 & 6 Game 1: 19 shots, 3 ast Game 2: 28 shots 1 ast Game 3: 29 shots 8 ast Game 6 25 shots 3 asts

If you go back and read any articles about that series it was widely talked about that in games 4&5 Phil asked Kobe to facilitate the offense in games 4&5 to allow himself to defend westbrook for one, and secondly to involve his teammates more. The reason why I included the a.ssists is also to show that facilitation has nothing to do with a.ssists totals its about making plays within the offense that will contribute to the possession.

You gonna argue with that? Real numbers homie, not averages, no cooking of the books, no illuminati math, real actual contextually relevant numbers.

 A.G said:
And I'll say my main argument again, Kobe has RARELY been able to play off the ball and have other players create for him. Usually it has been him who has to create for others. Last night's game & the Wednesday game vs the Mavericks were perfect examples of what I'm talking about with him being able to play off the ball and not having to create for others. He shot poorly last night, but he rarely had to handle the ball and was getting easy shots throughout the game.
And that's why your main argument is wrong, because the triangle itself creates opportunities for him playing off the ball. Its not his teammates that keep Kobe from these opportunities it's kobe wanting the ball in those situations. This is where you fail to accept you are wrong. Kobe has been a 2 guard his whole career,in this offense under Mike Brown, he's a.ssumed the same gameplan he was running with with Rudy T, "shoot until I cant shoot no more", same thing when Phil first got back which is why Phil was not happy with Kobe scoring 66 and 81 points and going for 40 every night because it was not good triangle basketball.

THIS YEAR he reverted back to that because they are no longer using the triangle, which is why again THEY HELD A TEAM MEETING TO DISCUSS GOING BACK TO THE TRIANGLE OFFENSE. Not because Kobe wanted it, the bigs wanted it.

 A.G said:
In the past, despite his poor night and the fact that he's not a great ballhandler, he would have to bring the ball up, either have to isolate or create an opportunity for another player. Ramon Sessions was doing that. In essence, his primary responsibility now is to get the ball and make a shot or pass it off. That's what he means by being a legitimate 2-guard. Meaning he doesn't have to distribute within the offense, or handle the ball as much, drawing attention away from him and allowing him to be able to play off the ball.
1, Kobe's not a good ball handler? When did that become a common opinion in the NBA? Secondly, that only for this season and because tof the offense Mike Brown runs, and third the past would mean previous seasons. Which is would make that statement a lie, because Fisher and Odom often brought the ball up the court in most sets that were not transition.

 A.G said:
He has NOT been playing off the ball for the majority of his career, as even with Shaq on the Lakers, a large part of the offense ran through Kobe being a primary distributor within the offense and a main scoring option.
Wrong again, the offense ran through shaq when he was on the floor as the #1 scoring option, when Shaq was off the floor, Kobe would look to create his own shot within the offense. when Shaq was on the floor, most sets would begin with either a dump down, or Shaq playing off the ball with action on the other side that would draw the defense away leaving for an easy drop off for shaq.

Secondly no player has ever averaged more than 7 a.ssists per game in a Phil Jackson run triangle. There is no primary distributor, because everyone should be making passes. So Kobe was not a primary distributor with 5 a.ssists a game. Shaq was averaging 3+ during the title run. So how was Kobe the primary distributor when he averaged 2 a.ssist more per game, than the leading scorer? And don't try to say you meant facilitator because you already pointed out you made a mistake using that term. So you really don't know what it means.

 A.G said:
Don't quote my entire fu*king post, because you're not getting it at all. I'm not talking about backdoor cuts, triangle "tenets" or verbology that has nothing to do with the main point whatsoever.
Your main point=Kobe can be a 2 guard for the first time in 12 year and he can finally play off the ball and not have to create for others...


So because you don't understand the Triangle Offense, I showed you why you were wrong for saying what you said, and broke down both Kobe's role in Phil's offense and Mike Brown's offense. and explained why if Kobe wants to be a "legit 2 guard" it should mean less shots from him per game and more shots for Bynum and Gasol in Mike Brown's offense....


What part of that was A) wrong B) didn't make an actual point or C) was not statistically backed up with game footage and stats?


Its a few n*ggas on here that actually understand the game and I respect their opinions and insight and then there are guys like you. the guys that call sports talk radio and make comments like "Lamar Odom sucks look how bad he plays in Dallas"

I'm not going to debate a n*gga on boxing or golf because although i watch it, I dont know the science kinda like you and basketball. This is a situation where you should have just fell back and accepted that you were wrong.
 6 years ago '04        #96
A.G 27 heat pts27
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I'm not going to quote the entire post, but:

The offense actually was running more and more through Kobe when Shaq was there, since; Shaq was often injured, not in the best game shape at all times, a poor FT shooter and a guy always create opportunities on his own. What you seem to be neglecting is the fact that the triangle is a fluid offense that can change at all times. Since all of the positions are theoretically interchangeable, the offense can run through players like Kobe (3peat years), Malone Gasol, Bynum and Odom.

You're confusing the theoretical aspects of the triangle with the actual use of it in game. As much as the offense is designed to create equal opportunity and constant ball-movement, often in practice, it doesn't occur like that because of the fact that Phil Jackson always had a player of superior talent on his team, so he catered the offense to be designed around the strengths of those players. This is not the 1950's-50's Kansas State offense. Phil and Tex always said that you have to allow superior talent to flourish.

They made the trade for Sessions for several reasons; the Lakers lacked speed/athleticism in their lineup, they were porous defensively at the PG position, they were essentially non-existent in transition. Mike Brown created the offense to cater to the talent he had on his roster, he didn't bring it over from Cleveland. Sessions came in the day after he was traded and played, how would he have done that? He relied on his instincts to play, not learn the offense in a crash course. The Lakers were putting new sets in their offense as late as the Dallas game, and Phil Jackson's triangle teams tended to institute new sets in the offense throughout the year.. I never said the ball was just dumped into the post all the time, but Kobe's high FGA/usage % is an indicator that he has been very ball dominant, since his first inclination as a player is to shoot. Derek Fisher was a guy who was not a good player at that point in his career. Him and Sessions played the same amount of minutes last night, go look up the difference in their production.

The offense ran through Gasol when Kobe was not there. Gasol played the 5 with Odom playing the 4 most times. You CAN run a play for an player in the triangle, but like I said, the triangle also allows you to take advantage of the talent you have by running sets through them. The first 2 years Phil was there, the Lakers were rarely running the triangle because of the rapid turnover of players. They were slowly implementing the sets but it wasn't full-fledged like the last 2-3 years.

The triangle has literally dozens of sets and many of them are designed for certain players to get a better shot or opportunity than others. Odom's "facilitating" were just simple passes within the context of the offense. Not Odom controlling the ball, or the tempo, or even really distributing the ball. And that Kobe play was just a clear-out really.

Those OKC Thunder stats are misleading because a) Kobe played injured throughout that series and had to get his knee drained b) He took on more of a defensive stopper role against Westbrook, and that's the series where Phil said "shoot better or don't shoot at all". That's not exactly becoming a facilitator more than it is improving his shot selection.. Not to mention games 4 & 5 were both blowouts where his minutes were significantly decreased.

Kobe hasn't been a great ball-handler since his finger injuries. And he's also had that wrist injury. He's more prone to losing the ball than he has been before..

A huge reason why no player has ever averaged 7 APG in the triangle is also because the triangle heavily involves second passes as well. Shaq was passing out of the post when the defense was collapsing, simple as that really.

Being a legit 2 guard =/= less shots per game, it means better and easier opportunities to score. That's all I've been really trying to say. When the ball would be in the post to Bynum/Gasol, Kobe's usually out there in the weak side triangle to maintain floor spacing. He's never been a spot-up shooter where he'd be able to take the passes out of the post and score effectively like Ray Allen. But there's more to playing off the ball than spot-up shooting. Now playing with Sessions he will be able to play with a guy who takes a crowd of defenders with him, giving him more room to operate on pull-up jumpers and in the post, an area that had become too crowded for him to really work in because of how many defenders he draws and the Lakers' lack of outside shooting. Sessions is a solid shooter from what I can see and also quick, the defense will have to be honest when defending him instead of shading off guys like Blake/Fisher.

You could say you don't respect my opinion & insight, it's all good.. That's what a fundamental difference in opinion will do I guess.

I hope I got everything in there.
 6 years ago '10        #97
Nautilus O 18 heat pts18
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Not even gonna read it enjoy your saturday
 6 years ago '08        #98
slimdogg3325 1 heat pts
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yo what the fu*k is wrong with yall

yall postin like yall gettin graded for this sh*t. go outside
 6 years ago '04        #99
A.G 27 heat pts27
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 Nautilus O said:
Not even gonna read it enjoy your saturday
 6 years ago '05        #100
GUNIT-FINEST 
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man wtf no one reading all that sh*t u n*ggas taking kobe wayyyyy to serious
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