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 02-29-2012, 12:22 PM         #41
xeduran 
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 FrankAndBeans said:
In an open, free market the better product is determined by the consumer sales. And the consumers have consistently shown the iPad to be the best tablet. There is more to a product than a spec sheet.
Wow so now you are bringing Capitalism into this. I am done arguing with people on Boxden. Sales does not equal the best. Keep believing what you want. People buy crap all the time. That crap is not the best because it sells a lot. I guess Walmart provides some of the best quality products then based on sales. Stans are getting beyond ridiculous now.

I guess the Wii is the greatest gaming system ever based on sales.



Last edited by xeduran; 02-29-2012 at 12:29 PM..
 6 years ago '11        #42
PTC 138 heat pts138
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 xeduran said:
The average individual does not know a dang thing about performance or anything technical. Better performance is better performance, point blank period. If one tablet can load websites faster, play videos faster, play games faster, have a better screen, etc, then it is the better tablet. Preferred and better are too different things. When people in the actual industry talk about electronics they are talking about performance. All benchmarking and reviewing online by the tech sites is talking about performance. What the consumer prefers does not make it better.

The parameters are things like browsing, gaming, viewing videos, taking pictures, etc. Those are the accepted parameters in the industry. The average consumer knows nothing about these or very little. Now we are defining the term "better". Reviews are done as objectively as possible because of the bias people have for certain name brands. Quite often very good products are overlooked because of the name brand. This is why us educated folks actually review things and find out what is the best product.

If you are going to argue the definition of "better", then the Ipad is still no better than an Android tablet. Depending on who is buying the tablet, an Android tablet may be better. Sales still do not support the "better" argument in that case. All sales tell is that the Ipad is more popular.

Just because someone does not need the fastest tablet when it comes to surfing the web, does not make the tablet they choose better than the faster alternative. They just have a preference. That is like saying that if most men prefer white women that white women are better. It is a preference, not an actual fact proven by performance. My point is that to say that a product that sells a lot more than another is better than the other, based on sales, is just ridiculous. It just means that most people prefer that product. Brand name has a very large pull when it comes to products.

Let's see how many Apple TVs sell even though there are superior TVs on the market for lower prices. I guess if Apple TVs sell like hotcakes, that would make them better.

If someone needs a tablet with the best PERFORMING battery life... then who are you to say 1 tablet with better "speed" is better? You can say that 1 tablet is faster, but to say that it's better just shows your incapability to understand that people determine these products.

It's like XBox 360 and PS3 debate...PS3 is by far the superior spec'd system but XBox is not only outselling it, you have many people that consider the XBox the BETTER system. Preference is everything, performance is just another dry statistic when you look at the bigger picture.

This whole idea can be translated across anything...sports. People who just look at statistics and try and determine the better player are ignorant as fu*k. If you know anything about the sports world, you'd know this is just as stupid.

Or cars. How can you tell someone a GTR or Bmw M3 is better than a Prius? Yo the M3 and GTR are better cars than the Prius, they're better performing cars!

Your last question just shows your incapability to understand anything I'm saying, and to think beyond what's on paper. You're asking once again, if the Apple TV's sell like hotcakes, or let's even say if they outsell competition, does it make them better... yes it does, for those people buying it makes it better FOR THEM!

"BETTER" is just a arbitrary word determined by the people. The fu*k does it matter if you have the best specs in the world if no one is gon buy your sh*t?

I'm not saying sales determine everything, but sales are what the companies go by... people in the industry running benchmarks all day are fu*kin irrelevant
 02-29-2012, 07:48 PM         #43
xeduran 
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 PTC said:
If someone needs a tablet with the best PERFORMING battery life... then who are you to say 1 tablet with better "speed" is better? You can say that 1 tablet is faster, but to say that it's better just shows your incapability to understand that people determine these products.

It's like XBox 360 and PS3 debate...PS3 is by far the superior spec'd system but XBox is not only outselling it, you have many people that consider the XBox the BETTER system. Preference is everything, performance is just another dry statistic when you look at the bigger picture.

This whole idea can be translated across anything...sports. People who just look at statistics and try and determine the better player are ignorant as fu*k. If you know anything about the sports world, you'd know this is just as stupid.

Or cars. How can you tell someone a GTR or Bmw M3 is better than a Prius? Yo the M3 and GTR are better cars than the Prius, they're better performing cars!

Your last question just shows your incapability to understand anything I'm saying, and to think beyond what's on paper. You're asking once again, if the Apple TV's sell like hotcakes, or let's even say if they outsell competition, does it make them better... yes it does, for those people buying it makes it better FOR THEM!

"BETTER" is just a arbitrary word determined by the people. The fu*k does it matter if you have the best specs in the world if no one is gon buy your sh*t?

I'm not saying sales determine everything, but sales are what the companies go by... people in the industry running benchmarks all day are fu*kin irrelevant
Again if you are going to argue the definition of the word better and say it is on an individual basis, than no product is better than another product. The definition of the word better means superior in quality. Yes a GTR or M3 are better than a Prius, except on gas mileage and interior space of course. Even people who own a Prius will tell you that. Now are those two more suitable for that particular person, maybe not. You are replacing the word preferred with better. By your definition, if a tablet was better than the Ipad in every single way including battery life, it still would not be better if most people buy the Ipad. That is just ridiculous. There is a difference between preferred and better. On that note, you believe whatever you want. What is the point of even arguing specs and performance than?

Nobody said the best product sells the most. The consumer can either buy the best product available or whatever product they choose. This is not clothing where everything is subjective. Electronic devices are made to perform certain tasks. Devices that perform those tasks better than other similar devices are thus better. Whether those devices are the preferred product or not is a different story.

The consumer will buy whatever they want. If they do not want the best product available, that is their choice. Some people may prefer to buy the Iphone 4 instead of the 4S. Maybe buy the Ipad 2 instead of the Ipad 3 because they do not need the better specs. People determine how popular a product becomes, not whether the product is better or not.

Again, by your standards than the Wii is better than the PS3 and Xbox 360 because it sold like hotcakes. I have never on any site heard people define better as ya have on this site. Never have I heard people seriously refer to sales to define the quality of a product.

I have bought plenty of products in my life where I did not get the best product. My home theater setup is pretty nice. I have a great receiver, subwoofer and speakers. Are they the best speakers? No. But I was not willing to drop 20 grand on a home theater setup. So I bought what was good enough for me. If you want to use your definition of the word better, than the setup I bought was better for me. At the same time, then use the word across the board. Do not label the Iphone better than a WP7 or Android phone. Do not label the Ipad better than an Android tablet. Better by your definition solely is based on the consumer's needs.

It seems we are using very different definitions. For me better has to do with concrete measurements. Preferred has to do with consumer wants and needs. I have no problem labeling a product better but at the same time saying it is not my preference.

When I give advice to people who ask me for advice on electronics, I always ask them what they need the device to do. I then tell them which devices do those tasks best and the price range. You seem to think I do not understand anything about the consumer's wants and needs. I do understand them clearly. I just do not label something better, I use the term more suitable for your needs.

Either way you have drifted from my point. How does sales numbers equal to a product being better? It is the most popular, but how is it better? You say better for the people who bought it, how about for the people who bought the other product? By your definition, you cannot just say one product is better than the other based on sales. You can say it is more successful and popular.


Last edited by xeduran; 02-29-2012 at 08:17 PM..
 6 years ago '11        #44
Deuterion 2 heat pts
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 xeduran said:
Again, by your standards than the Wii is better than the PS3 and Xbox 360 because it sold like hotcakes.
You still don't get it. The Wii was the better option for a wider group of people due to its interface. It might not be better to a hardcore gamer but to the AVERAGE person the Wii was looked upon as the better system. This is why both Microsoft and Sony rushed to get the Move and Kinect on the market...they wanted to hit the same market Nintendo was. The moral of the story is that "better" is a relative statement. If you like motion gaming then obviously the Wii is the system for you. If you like shooting games and online play then the Wii is the absolute worst system you can buy. When the word "better" comes about there needs to be a metric to compare to...a metric that is not based on feeling, emotion, or other unquantifiable thing.
 6 years ago '10        #45
FrankAndBeans 27 heat pts27
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Companies use sales to determine the better product. If a competitor is dominating a segment, companies will study that product and conform. Get in the real world xeduran.
 02-29-2012, 09:22 PM         #46
xeduran 
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 Deuterion said:
You still don't get it. The Wii was the better option for a wider group of people due to its interface. It might not be better to a hardcore gamer but to the AVERAGE person the Wii was looked upon as the better system. This is why both Microsoft and Sony rushed to get the Move and Kinect on the market...they wanted to hit the same market Nintendo was. The moral of the story is that "better" is a relative statement. If you like motion gaming then obviously the Wii is the system for you. If you like shooting games and online play then the Wii is the absolute worst system you can buy. When the word "better" comes about there needs to be a metric to compare to...a metric that is not based on feeling, emotion, or other unquantifiable thing.
This is exactly my point. If you just go based on sales, quite often sales reflects emotions. Quite often people buy products based on emotions and not quantifiable things. That is there choice of course to do so. In the electronic industry, the metric has been defined time and time again. We have quantifiable things. Battery life, processing power and speed, display, etc. As for the Wii, I personally know people who bought a Wii and have not touched it since using it the first day they got it. A lot of people bought it based on emotion and not actual use.
 02-29-2012, 09:25 PM         #47
xeduran 
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 FrankAndBeans said:
Companies use sales to determine the better product. If a competitor is dominating a segment, companies will study that product and conform. Get in the real world xeduran.
I live in the real world and work with several different companies. Companies determine what products will sell, not which ones are better. Companies want to make money. That is their number one goal. If a product is a piece of sh*t but will sell, they will make it. I have been to companies who make certain products and have been told by their people that the product is subpar, but people buy it. Again you are using a completely different definition of the word better. Popular and better are not the same thing. Sales and better are not the same thing.

The metric you guys are using is sales. Sales is not a metric, it is a conclusion. A product can sell based completely off of emotion.

I can tell on here who has more of a business mind versus an engineering mind. Better should always have concrete metrics, not just sales numbers. Or else why even bother stating one product is better than the other.

You seem to not understand the ignorance of a lot of consumers. Lets say a test was done to see which laundry detergent worked best at cleaning clothes. Lets say Gain won versus Tide. Yet people buy Tide more because of the P&G brand loyalty. Does that make Tide the better product? If you think yes than I am done arguing. The metric here is which one cleans better. There can only be one winner. Sales has nothing to do with it. People buying Tide because they prefer that brand is an emotional response. That is not a valid metric.

Does that make the consumer wrong? Not necessarily, it is their preference. People can choose to buy an inferior product if they do not need to use the advantages of the superior product. In my example, people can buy Tide if they think their clothes are clean enough. That does not take away from the fact that Gain cleans the clothes even better. It just means that the consumer does not care. It is a preference. I do not see how you guys do not understand that.


Last edited by xeduran; 02-29-2012 at 09:39 PM..
 6 years ago '10        #48
FrankAndBeans 27 heat pts27
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iPad >

/thread
 6 years ago '11        #49
Deuterion 2 heat pts
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 FrankAndBeans said:
iPad >

/thread
Church. Tabernacle.
 6 years ago '11        #50
PTC 138 heat pts138
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I skimmed through some of your posts and you're just not capable of understanding. You're at a point where you're just rambling trying to convince yourself that your train of thought is correct, but it's clearly not. You've gone as far as just spitting out bullsh*t, such as:


 xeduran said:
Sales is not a metric, it is a conclusion.


For real? Sales is not a metric? You say you "work with companies"? I'd like to know what companies don't consider sales a metric.

Again, you're running around calling products inferior/superior to each other disregarding that the people determine what's inferior/superior, and it's based on preference. Inferior/superior can't be put on paper, unless you're literally comparing two products alike (ie different models of a computer, or a car like a BMW 3-series vs M3, etc)... but when you're really looking at the broad perspective of things, it all depends on the people.

Who are you to tell a graphic designer that a windows PC is better? Who are you to tell a person who writes code or does data processing that a Mac is better? Who are you to tell a college student a PC is better than a Mac? Who are you to tell someone that a fast car is a better than a Prius? Who are you to tell someone a gas car is better than an electric car?

I skimmed... but I didn't see you respond to my 360 vs PS3.

The PS3 has better specs, and plays blu ray. But the 360 outsells the PS3 AND MAJORITY of people consider 360 the SUPERIOR product.... but on paper, the PS3 is better!
 6 years ago '11        #51
PTC 138 heat pts138
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 xeduran said:
Again if you are going to argue the definition of the word better and say it is on an individual basis, than no product is better than another product.
A product is better than another product is based from individual to individual. If an individual needs a phone that handles purely email, what's the "best" and "better" product for him? The blackberry.

How many people consider the blackberry the best product in the market? Not many, but for some people it is!

The definition of the word better means superior in quality.
No, it doesn't mean superior in quality unless you're talking about clothing. What is quality? Is the iPhone better than the Galaxy S2 because it is "superior quality"? Meaning, built with better materials? What is "quality"?

Yes a GTR or M3 are better than a Prius, except on gas mileage and interior space of course. Even people who own a Prius will tell you that.
Here you go again. Who are you to say the GTR or M3 is better than a Prius? It may be a better performing car in terms of SPEED, HANDLING, LUXURY... but there are other areas where the Prius is a BETTER CAR, ie insurance, gas milage, safety for a young driver, etc.

You are nobody to say the GTR or M3 is the better car than a Prius. And no, you can go ask a random a.ss lady Prius owner with kids and a family what is the better car, and they would NOT say the GTR or M3. A smart person would say, better for me? The Prius. Faster? the M3/GTR.

This right here shows your ignorance.


You are replacing the word preferred with better.
Preferred is easily defined... you can use sales as a metric, what's more popular. Easy.

Better NEEDS to have a specification... BETTER IN WHAT WAY? You cannot just flat out say 1 product is "better" than another with no explanation other than this product has better bench marks or this car is faster and better handling. That's fu*king ignorant.

A soccer mom comes up to you and says what's the best car? You gon tell her to get a Audi R8? Or are you going to ask her what she needs?


By your definition, if a tablet was better than the Ipad in every single way including battery life, it still would not be better if most people buy the Ipad.
See you're thinking like a inside the box person right now. By my definition, all I'm saying is, that tablet COULD be better to some people... but if most people are buying the iPAd, that just means the iPad is better for most people... that's it!

That is just ridiculous. There is a difference between preferred and better. On that note, you believe whatever you want.
What the fu*k does a "better" product matter if NO ONE PREFERS it? Do you understand this concept?

You think Sony is patting themselves on the back because they have a better spec'd product yet losing the console wars? You know who thinks about the "better" idea like you do? The fan boys and nerds who PREFER a PS3... which is generally, at the end of the day, irrelevant.

What is the point of even arguing specs and performance than?
There is really no point in ARGUING SPECS because SPECS are just fu*king numbers... that sh*t is for losers man which is why I said

I'm not saying sales determine everything, but sales are what the companies go by... people in the industry running benchmarks all day are fu*kin irrelevant
Apple just hit over 500 billion in capitalization.... sh*tting on the world. They've generally always released products that are spec'd lower than the competition, but who are you to say their product is flat out "inferior"? You realize how stupid that sounds? Just sounds like a hatin a.ss with a brain inside a box.


Last edited by PTC; 03-01-2012 at 05:54 AM..
 6 years ago '11        #52
PTC 138 heat pts138
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I can tell you've never been in sales in any serious fashion. If a customer comes up and asks you for help, #1 question is ALWAYS what do you need in your product?

You don't just fu*kin shove a product/car down their throat because it's spec'd better


Last edited by PTC; 03-01-2012 at 05:56 AM..
 03-01-2012, 07:38 AM         #53
xeduran 
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 PTC said:
I can tell you've never been in sales in any serious fashion. If a customer comes up and asks you for help, #1 question is ALWAYS what do you need in your product?

You don't just fu*kin shove a product/car down their throat because it's spec'd better
I see you picked and chose what you wanted to read from my posts. I was specifically referring to metrics used to determine if a product is better or not. Sales is not a metric in that situation. It is a metric if you are determining market share and possibly profit. How about you read my posts within context and not just twist my words. I also clearly stated that when someone asks me for advice on an electronic product that I clearly ask them first what do they need or want from the device. You misquoted me left and right and just chose to read what you want. I also stated that the Prius has more interior space and gas mileage. I gave a better example than your car example with the laundry detergent. Better is a term that most of us use based on actual metrics and not individual needs. When a product is reviewed, it is reviewed based on metrics not sales. One is labeled better based on metrics not sales. The PS3 is arguably the better system by the way, not a fact. Many games look better on the Xbox 360, the controllers, etc. The metrics used to rate both do not come out with a conclusively better product.

I mention consistently on here that either an IPhone, Android phone, or Windows phone is a great device. Neither can really be labeled better in that area because each phone has its pros and cons. But when we are talking about a product that beats another product in every single metric available, it is better plain and simple. I am not going to argue the definition anymore. There is a reason why no reviewers use sales to determine the quality of a product or which product is better.

Also I know what companies look at and do not look at. I have dealt with more companies than most people on this site. What companies look at has nothing to do with one product being better than another. It does have to do with sales figures. Who is arguing what is best for a company and what they care about? I am not. I never said a company cares about making the best quality product possible. I clearly stated that companies only care about one thing, profit. You keep straying from the main conversation.

My point is that sales does not equal better. You seem to argee with that. Your definition of better is different than what the industry uses. I tend to speak using the language of whatever industry I am dealing with. Electronic devices have metrics for determining if a product is better or not. You seem to think that no product can ever be determined better based on any metrics. If that is what you believe than fine. Most people do not use that definition.

My response was to the statement that was made that the Ipad is a better tablet because it sells more. It is definitely the most popular tablet. But better has nothing to do with sales.


Last edited by xeduran; 03-01-2012 at 09:52 AM..
 03-01-2012, 09:56 AM         #54
xeduran 
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 PTC said:
I can tell you've never been in sales in any serious fashion. If a customer comes up and asks you for help, #1 question is ALWAYS what do you need in your product?

You don't just fu*kin shove a product/car down their throat because it's spec'd better
For the record, products have been shoved down people's throats many times. I do not agree with it, but they have. You know how many people bought SUVs and Trucks when they did not need them at all. All because of marketing tactics. Marketing is used quite often to shove products down people's throat. I am not a bullsh*t marketer so I tend to actually ask people what they want.

I am guessing you did not read my previous posts which is why you made that statement about me. Besides your obvious Apple stanning, I can tell you at least have intelligence. So you are either being a troll right now, or just flat out did not read my previous posts.
 6 years ago '05        #55
P-Hill|M 26 heat pts26
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I can't believe the arguments I'm reading right now
 6 years ago '11        #56
PTC 138 heat pts138
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My point is that sales does not equal better. You seem to argee with that. Your definition of better is different than what the industry uses. I tend to speak using the language of whatever industry I am dealing with. Electronic devices have metrics for determining if a product is better or not. You seem to think that no product can ever be determined better based on any metrics. If that is what you believe than fine. Most people do not use that definition.
The language of the industry? WHO in the industry?

The people running the industry go by sales, I'll tell you that much.

But that's not a metric right?

 03-01-2012, 06:18 PM         #57
xeduran 
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 PTC said:
The language of the industry? WHO in the industry?

The people running the industry go by sales, I'll tell you that much.

But that's not a metric right?



People who review the products. Not the companies selling them. You have to be trolling, there is no way this is all going over your head. I guess organizations like J.D. Power and a.ssociates, the Academy Awards, etc are not part of the industry they make reviews for. I guess them using their own established metrics in those industries mean nothing to you. Or their awards for best in their field. None of those organizations use sales. Keep calling sales a metric for reviewing. It is not used in any review organization. Sales measures popularity and profit in some instances, not better products. Keep talking out of your a** though. You are trolling. No more responses to your stupid remarks.


Last edited by xeduran; 03-01-2012 at 06:28 PM..
 03-01-2012, 07:18 PM         #58
Walt Thizzney 
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 RYLNYC said:
I use a Macbook for work and have an iPhone 4 for business. Hate Apple all y'all want, but I absolutely love the flawless integration/seamless syncing between the two: iCal, Mail, iTunes, and iCloud alone -- something no other laptop/phone combo does as well in my opinion.

To each their own though At this point though, if I decide to get a tablet, the best option is an iPad. No sense in having a Macbook, iPhone, and a Galaxy, doesn't add up.
google does all this better and it even works with apple applications
 6 years ago '07        #59
genobee 21 heat pts21
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Don't get how all these apple stans are confusing personal preferences, with actual facts.

There are a lot of products in the past that has been successful, although they were inferior in specs and quality to other product on the market(Sidekick, WII, etc). Does that make the better? Or more preferred by consumers?

The best build product isnt something that change with opinion. For example, if the Samsung galaxy tab 10.1 instantly sold a 50 million copies, everyone started liking everything about it, and started despising the iPad 2 for some odd reason, with its new found Popularity, does that make the galaxy tab a better tablet than the Ipad2? The answer is NO!!! The iPad 2 is a better build product with much better features. Even if somehow the galaxy tab where to sell more, It would still be inferior to the iPad 2 because of its inferior build, laggy Honey Comb OS, smaller app market etc. But if a product comes out with better specs, more feature, and equally responsive OS, then that product is better, even if the ipad 2 is the more preferred product by consumers. Preference should play a role in which product is better, but that role should be minimal at best.


People always ask me which is the best tablet on the market, I always say the transformer prime is, and give the reason to why it is. But if they ask me which is best for them, I always say that the iPad 2 would be their best choice, and give reasons why.

Its not about sales or popularity, Its quality, performance, features
 6 years ago '11        #60
PTC 138 heat pts138
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Mother fu*kers dodging my PS3 vs 360 example like some politicians
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