Em got the balls to compete unlike jay, thats why hes more respected in the hiphop community

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Props Slaps
 10-13-2011, 12:32 AM         #81
Karamu  OP
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 O D said:

just cause you dont understand him it dont mean that he nice.

bunch of random bars about allah and africa.
not a single bar hes spit can't be broken down, take that bullsh*t outta here
 10-13-2011, 12:38 AM         #82
Karamu  OP
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 Blacknitro said:
But he's not a battle/punchline rapper, so ppl are not gonna be so quick to give him props like they with Slaughterhouse, Papoose, Jadakiss, etc.

Jay E is a lyricist. Those kind of cats NEVER get the credit they deserve. Ask Kweli, Common, 3000, Scarface, Ice Cube, Mos Def and so on. They get respect, but nothing like what they'd get if they were battle/punchline rappers. Plus Jay E is from the south, so he's gonna have a hard time gettin proper credit no matter what he puts out. Jay Z knows he's no threat to his status as being viewed as a elite MC. Jay Z has NEVER signed a well known battle/punchline rapper. He steers clear of anyone that could challenge him without effort.
what???

Jay is scared of punchline rappers but not an elite lyricist like Jay Electronica

and Slaughterhouse would never get signed with Hov simply because they don't know how to put together great music and will ONLY get props for their bars rather than their songs/albums. If it wasn't for Royce, i doubt Em would even sign these dudes
 6 years ago '10        #83
Ant McQueen 16 heat pts16
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When people talk about certain people being bigger than their respective field it's not about the sh*t they do outside of that field. It's about those people setting a standard. Whenever there's a basketball player that's supposed to be good who do people compare him to? Jordan. Same with singers/entertainers... people are always compared to Michael. Jay is one of " those " people within Hip Hop.
 10-13-2011, 02:04 AM         #84
im starving  OP
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I dont know if the thread starter is going to see this sh*t, but in the context of what you wrote out, you're 100% correct.


I dont know how old you are man, but I grew up throughout jay-z's entire process to fame as well as eminem's, and in a pure lyricist view point... eminem is the pure emcee. Hip hop if you want to go all fu*king old school has 4 elements/avenues though, emcee'ing is just one of them. Even in Jay-z's oooold a.ss songs, in my lifetime etc etc.. he repeatedly says i'm not a rapper i'm a hustler, lines that say to an extent i'm taking this rap sh*t serious b/c it's his new hustle..

Jay-Z was respected by BIG, by all of new york because he actually moved heavy weight, he was actually big in the 88' crack game.. i still remember when reasonable doubt came out he had drug connects down in houston where i lived at. I still jam reasonable doubt to this day and not only do you hear his insane rhyme scheme, story telling, and complexity, you actually feel less hunger and more viciousness. Even when he had beef with nas, the n*gga slept with nas's baby's momma, and when they were on tour with large professor, the crowd got riled up and nas and lp ran to the tour bus and jay had to back the crowd down with a gun. He made it, then he CHANGED the game.. what rapper sold clothing before RW came out? who was doing shoes.. yada yada...

In this sense I feel Jay-z personifies hip hop more. RD is still top 5 of all time to me, b/c most of these kids that listen to it now would probably have to write it down and highlight the rhymes to even catch his scheme b/c he does it so smoothly it doesnt sound forced at all, and he paints an entire story out at the same time. But jay-z came from goverment housing (marcy projects) and is now the richest rapper in the game. You really can't even find someone who's more bottom that went as high up as jay did in the game. somewhere along that path (not signing jaz-o, biggs/dame beef) he lost the hip hop persona and became a business mogul though, and I feel like that's all these new age kids see, is this business, diddy-like mogul trying to rap and they just dont feel/respect him b/c they think fake adopted bloods like wayne hold it down.


eminem is just a pure emcee, came in the game with lyrics, still about the lyrics, helps out people he finds and thinks is hot etc. etc. honestly i never got too into eminem, he's GOOD don't get me wrong, but in his early works he was himself, and it was hard to relate to a trailer park story.. but i still dug him for being genuine and lyrical at the same time. then he started doing features with d-block and sh*t talking about how gangster he was and i just completely lost interest in him.. the difference is eminem came back and is being himself again whereas jay-z just adapted to the new environment



this is why i believe you'll still see 'camel' warriors back jay up, because he really is the MJ of rap.. who changed it that hard? what other bum a.ss kid from goverment housing made it this big? mos def was in frank roos projects and he does movies n sh*t, and still stays relatively true to the hip hop persona... but eminem was in 2 story houses with a mohawk.. he's just a kid that loves the art of hip hop.. he doesn't quite PERSONIFY hip hop in my opinion.


on a side note and to keep it short (lol). Jay's music is more hip hop to me b/c i mean hip hop originated from soul, sam cooke, otis redding, stylistics, delfonics, commodores, al green etc etc. and jay has the feel of hip hop more-so than eminems songs. eminem has his own unique style but he is just a pure emcee, and his lyrics will always be fire but thats it to me.
 6 years ago '05        #85
sheedawg 2 heat pts
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 Blacknitro said:
But he's not a battle/punchline rapper, so ppl are not gonna be so quick to give him props like they do with Slaughterhouse, Papoose, Jadakiss, Big L etc.

Jay E is a lyricist. Those kind of cats NEVER get the credit they deserve. Look at Kweli, Common, 3000, Scarface, Ice Cube, Mos Def and so on. They get respect, but nothing like what they'd get if they were battle/punchline rappers. Plus Jay E is from the south, so he's gonna have a hard time gettin proper credit no matter what he puts out. Jay Z knows he's no threat to his status as being viewed as a elite MC. Jay Z has NEVER signed a well known battle/punchline rapper. He steers clear of anyone that could challenge him without effort.


They do get the credit they deserve

The last point you made is true, and you know what, does't help your argument at all. Eminem is one of the only battle rappers to successfully craft songs and hits. Look at the GOATS of rap and you won;t find any punchline rappers with teh exception of Em, because at teh end of the day, it's about great SONGS and music, fu*k a punchline. It's obvious you don;t care about the music and only about rapping so arguing with you over Jay is dumb.


...wait, aint you the dude that called everyone dumb then proceeded to say Kendrick Lamar is from the South?..

 10-13-2011, 02:27 AM         #86
im starving  OP
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WOW, just read some of this sh*t..

we're talking about HIP HOP right?

hip hop is not made for the masses, that my friends is called pop.
pop and music are 2 different things.
you act like pac had a billboard topper lol wtf...


second argument made was jay is scared.. jay has a verse with damn near every rapper who was ever ANYTHING. i really dont think any of the slaughterhouse crew has a chance in this argument.. maybe bring up az, cormega for qb kids etc.. eminem has had a lot of features too so i dont really see the point in this argument

as far as not giving back.. n*gga what the fu*k does charity have to do with hip hop culture.. yeah help out some people em got 50 on... you guys really think that retard pushed hip hop to the next level? and of course jay signed memph bleek but atleast they were friends from before RD even came out, and of course amil..j cole jay elec, frank ocean, dude was prez of def jam or some sh*t for a while etc etc.. both artists have signed enough people for the 'chairty' case, and fu*k this argument anyhow

about jay not battling, last time he battled it was basically the new biggie pac beef.. if you were old enough to have been a part of that beef. that sh*t was EVERYTHING, that beef was EVERYWHERE, and rappers actually started taking cue from the jayz nas beef and started beefing just b/c that sh*t was hot now.. i remember so many kay slay tapes and bullsh*t nyc mixtapes about who got beef now.. and everyone in the rap game tried to take shots at jay.. i HARDLY consider the beef eminem and canibus had to be on a relevant scale in comparison. and having ciphers with your own label mates is not being competitive.. thats just throwing away some verses to get your own crew more exposure.



blah i forgot some of the other arguments.. come on atleast give a VALID argument.. are there no fu*king hip hop heads in this fu*king forum
 6 years ago '04        #87
psylence2k 58 heat pts58
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 Ant McQueen said:
When people talk about certain people being bigger than their respective field it's not about the sh*t they do outside of that field. It's about those people setting a standard. Whenever there's a basketball player that's supposed to be good who do people compare him to? Jordan. Same with singers/entertainers... people are always compared to Michael. Jay is one of " those " people within Hip Hop.
Setting the standard in a particular field doesn't mean you're bigger than that field, it just means you set the standard, someone has to set the standard, and it's usually one of the best, being one of the best doesn't mean you "transcend" that field. Why? because your established reputation is still reliant on your exceptional inclination WITHIN that field.

 im starving said:


eminem is just a pure emcee, came in the game with lyrics, still about the lyrics, helps out people he finds and thinks is hot etc. etc. honestly i never got too into eminem, he's GOOD don't get me wrong, but in his early works he was himself, and it was hard to relate to a trailer park story.. but i still dug him for being genuine and lyrical at the same time. then he started doing features with d-block and sh*t talking about how gangster he was and i just completely lost interest in him.. the difference is eminem came back and is being himself again whereas jay-z just adapted to the new environment



this is why i believe you'll still see 'camel' warriors back jay up, because he really is the MJ of rap.. who changed it that hard? what other bum a.ss kid from goverment housing made it this big? mos def was in frank roos projects and he does movies n sh*t, and still stays relatively true to the hip hop persona... but eminem was in 2 story houses with a mohawk.. he's just a kid that loves the art of hip hop.. he doesn't quite PERSONIFY hip hop in my opinion.


on a side note and to keep it short (lol). Jay's music is more hip hop to me b/c i mean hip hop originated from soul, sam cooke, otis redding, stylistics, delfonics, commodores, al green etc etc. and jay has the feel of hip hop more-so than eminems songs. eminem has his own unique style but he is just a pure emcee, and his lyrics will always be fire but thats it to me.
I understand most of what you're saying, but I gotta disagree on Jay being more hip hop, especially for the reasons you stated, I understand you said " to me" so I really cant argue since you're using a subjective criteria. I think when we limit hip hop to a certain set of aesthetics it hurts the culture. It's similar to the way New York hated on the south and west because they sounded "different" therefore they weren't as much hip hop, or how ppl call kanye less hip hop for what he does. Hip Hop never had a solid specific and particular definition of what it should be. It just happened that the first ppl to do it were african american and heavily soul music influenced but using that to primarily judge everyone from there on out is kinda detrimental to the growth and evolution of it, That's like a white person telling a black person that they're not as "american" as they are because they dont reflect similar aesthetics and values that the first Caucasian euro-centric settlers possessed. Just as this country is melting pop of diversity that has to constantly create and embrace new cultural forms of being "american" and should hold them in the same regard as the original ones, hip hop should to as well. It's like calling Pac or Outkast less Hip-Hop because they dont reflect it's original sound as much as you'd like. I understand that you may feel more " at home" with Jay's sound and style but I think that alone determining it to be more "hip hop" is pretty biased. Having a certain narrow idea of how Hip Hop should look and sound like on the surface is kind of superficially pretentious and ignorant of the deeper core values. As far as rap goes , the brutally honest articulation of a message or story delivered in spoken melodic rhyme delivery should be specific enough IMO.


Last edited by psylence2k; 10-13-2011 at 02:53 AM..
 6 years ago '07        #88
1LynguisticMind 177 heat pts177
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Jay is about the MONEY

Em is about the MUSIC

you decide what is more important to YOU as a fan.

its that simple.
 6 years ago '04        #89
psylence2k 58 heat pts58
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 im starving said:
WOW, just read some of this sh*t..

we're talking about HIP HOP right?

hip hop is not made for the masses, that my friends is called pop.
pop and music are 2 different things.
you act like pac had a billboard topper lol wtf...


second argument made was jay is scared.. jay has a verse with damn near every rapper who was ever ANYTHING. i really dont think any of the slaughterhouse crew has a chance in this argument.. maybe bring up az, cormega for qb kids etc.. eminem has had a lot of features too so i dont really see the point in this argument

as far as not giving back.. n*gga what the fu*k does charity have to do with hip hop culture.. yeah help out some people em got 50 on... you guys really think that retard pushed hip hop to the next level? and of course jay signed memph bleek but atleast they were friends from before RD even came out, and of course amil..j cole jay elec, frank ocean, dude was prez of def jam or some sh*t for a while etc etc.. both artists have signed enough people for the 'chairty' case, and fu*k this argument anyhow

about jay not battling, last time he battled it was basically the new biggie pac beef.. if you were old enough to have been a part of that beef. that sh*t was EVERYTHING, that beef was EVERYWHERE, and rappers actually started taking cue from the jayz nas beef and started beefing just b/c that sh*t was hot now.. i remember so many kay slay tapes and bullsh*t nyc mixtapes about who got beef now.. and everyone in the rap game tried to take shots at jay.. i HARDLY consider the beef eminem and canibus had to be on a relevant scale in comparison. and having ciphers with your own label mates is not being competitive.. thats just throwing away some verses to get your own crew more exposure.



blah i forgot some of the other arguments.. come on atleast give a VALID argument.. are there no fu*king hip hop heads in this fu*king forum

1. Pac had no Billboard Topper? What was California Love ??

2. I dont think ppl are saying Jay "isn't" hip hop, just that he doesn't value or give back selflessly to it as much, the more you value something the more likely you'll selflessly give back to it in a charitable form. Yea Jay signed ppl, but he never did anything to make it seem like he was just using them for a buck or an image. He might have who knows, but it never showed IMO.

3. Last time he battled he approached it thinking he had shyt in the bag and got annihilated, it left a bad taste in his mouth and he's been shook ever since in many ppl's minds. He still to this day doesn't think he got "ethered" and that he should've been seen as the victor.
 10-13-2011, 03:04 AM         #90
im starving  OP
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 psylence2k said:

I understand most of what you're saying, but I gotta disagree on Jay being more hip hop, especially for the reasons you stated, I understand you said " to me" so I really cant argue since you're using a subjective criteria. I think when we limit hip hop to a certain set of aesthetics it hurts the culture. It's similar to the way New York hated on the south and west because they sounded "different" therefore they weren't as much hip hop, or how ppl call kanye less hip hop for what he does. Hip Hop never had a solid specific and particular definition of what it should be. It just happened that the first ppl to do it were african american and heavily soul music influenced but using that to primarily judge everyone from there on out is kinda detrimental to the growth and evolution of it, That's like a white person telling a black person that they're not as "american" as they are because they dont reflect similar aesthetics and values that the first Caucasian euro-centric settlers possessed. Just as this country is melting pop of diversity that has to constantly create and embrace new cultural forms of being "american" and should hold them in the same regard as the original ones, hip hop should to as well. It's like calling Pac or Outkast less Hip-Hop because they dont reflect it's original sound as much as you'd like. I understand that you may feel more " at home" with Jay's sound and style but I think that alone determining it to be more "hip hop" is pretty biased. Having a certain narrow idea of how Hip Hop should look and sound like on the surface is kind of superficially pretentious and ignorant of the deeper core values. As far as rap goes , the brutally honest articulation of a message or story delivered in spoken melodic rhyme delivery should be specific enough IMO.


i agree with you on that whole heartedly.. but the simple fact that jay-z's sound has more of 'origin' sound to it did not play a major factor in my post.



i think jay is more hip hop because of his person, his life, his actions, his stories told through music, the reality of his music that made it more genuine, and his outcome. yes his life story and come up is closer based to the old soul that made hip hop, the discriminated and poor rising etc. etc. but that isnt the factor to it.

hip hop has a culture and it is changing always, but there is still a core in my opinion. it gets passed down from each generation to the next.. in our generation it was best said by nas 'clothes, bank rolls and hoes.. then what man?' i can't explain an entire culture's essence in text, but that paragraph you quoted was just stating how jay was much more relative in that aspect. I did not mean it to come off as it was the defining reason why jay is hip hop.


when you look at those things in eminem, he has all of them.... but in his own genuine way.. and that is why eminem is looked upon in such high regards in the hip hop community.. but i feel like he reminds me more of a mos def.. or a krs-one.. someone who is an avid participant and enthusiast, but never the face or personification of hip hop.. if that makes any sense
 10-13-2011, 03:14 AM         #91
im starving  OP
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 psylence2k said:
1. Pac had no Billboard Topper? What was California Love ??

2. I dont think ppl are saying Jay "isn't" hip hop, just that he doesn't value or give back selflessly to it as much, the more you value something the more likely you'll selflessly give back to it in a charitable form. Yea Jay signed ppl, but he never did anything to make it seem like he was just using them for a buck or an image. He might have who knows, but it never showed IMO.

3. Last time he battled he approached it thinking he had shyt in the bag and got annihilated, it left a bad taste in his mouth and he's been shook ever since in many ppl's minds. He still to this day doesn't think he got "ethered" and that he should've been seen as the victor.


1. sorry bad example, replace with az or big l or something, you get my point though haha

2. I do understand that Jay isn't as involved in his artists.. but eminem nurtures his artists, he is EXTREMELY hands on in the making of his artists, and I believe that is why people see him as the more charitable character.. If we are going based solely off how many rappers each has signed, i believe jay would come out on top.. but people see eminem as the person who puts his artists out etc..

but I feel like jay does the same.. every artist that has flopped has had atleast 1 or 2 music videos, or has features in singles with jay himself... but I feel like jay came up from NOTHING, and hustled his own way into the industry, bought himself a deal and came up from scraps.. while eminem battled his way in and got found and signed, and then dre basically nurtured him the way em now nurtures his artists..

Jay-z has a more of a 'if you're a man, prove yourself and make your own way' attitude towards his artists.. people complain about him not pushing j cole, but the dude has 2 videos, a worldwide tour, interviews on hot 97, on 106 and hot 97 on release date etc. etc... jay-z may just want his artists to be men.. instead of boys looking for handouts.. but that's a completely different argument.


3. I'm not going to lie when that beef was going down, I was the 1% that was on jay-z's side.. i felt like his lines had more real life basis as to where nas' lines were more just lyrical jabs that were comical.. b/c jay-z did pull out the gun at the tour with lp, he did sleep with carmen, and i didnt like nas too much b/c he called pac fake, bi*ched the fu*k out when pac confronted him.. then compared himself to pac in got yourself a gun.. that sh*t was mad wack to me when i was young.. and dont get me wrong i know every line in illmatic, but i still dont dig nas that much to this day haha...

My point in that argument was that we're talking about who personifies hip hop.. and jay-z's beef was a HUUUUGE point in hip hop.. it changed the content of mixtapes, it changed the content of shows.. everyone in hip hop was on their toes waiting for the next track... it made a MAJOR impact in hip hop culture even to this day... jay-z nas beef.. those words reverberate even with white kids our age... eminem's beef was more of the sh*t you find at cooley high's lunchtables, just underground rappers trying to get noticed type beef you know? even if jay did lose the lyrical battle.. the guy signed nas later and basically drags him around like an adopted son nowadays.. jay is just that n*gga man haha







edit: on a side note.. i no longer really have anything good to say about jay... when he didnt sign jaz-o.. the n*gga that fathered his whole style i lost heart in him man.. atleast toss him a couple million to eat on wtf... and of course the biggs and dame falling out.. but i dont know the inside stories to those..

also jay-z's verses are like a bad version of the new drake verses.. just a whole verse of 'meh' with one or 2 bars that make you go DAMN.. and i've actually stopped listening to jay-z albums since blueprint 1 haha.. i gave his albums after that a runthrough and sh*t but just wasnt all that impressed


but growing up man.. jigga was THAT n*gga on the real lol.. nobody could fu*k with him.. even when he takes L's he still made money... all from some dusty a.ss kid from marcy its crazy


Last edited by im starving; 10-13-2011 at 03:19 AM..
 6 years ago '04        #92
psylence2k 58 heat pts58
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 im starving said:
i agree with you on that whole heartedly.. but the simple fact that jay-z's sound has more of 'origin' sound to it did not play a major factor in my post.



i think jay is more hip hop because of his person, his life, his actions, his stories told through music, the reality of his music that made it more genuine, and his outcome. yes his life story and come up is closer based to the old soul that made hip hop, the discriminated and poor rising etc. etc. but that isnt the factor to it.

hip hop has a culture and it is changing always, but there is still a core in my opinion. it gets passed down from each generation to the next.. in our generation it was best said by nas 'clothes, bank rolls and hoes.. then what man?' i can't explain an entire culture's essence in text, but that paragraph you quoted was just stating how jay was much more relative in that aspect. I did not mean it to come off as it was the defining reason why jay is hip hop.


when you look at those things in eminem, he has all of them.... but in his own genuine way.. and that is why eminem is looked upon in such high regards in the hip hop community.. but i feel like he reminds me more of a mos def.. or a krs-one.. someone who is an avid participant and enthusiast, but never the face or personification of hip hop.. if that makes any sense

only significant thing I really see different about Jay ( in terms of his person, life, actions, story, etc )from Em besides the fact that he's black, is that he tells the story of a money hungry drug dealer. I really dont see how that alone is more hip hop. If that's the narrative and angle in the culture that you value you most than I can't argue with that, but I've always felt that Em's average joe from extreme poverty who loved to emcee was a incarnation of hip hop in it's purest form. Jays lifestyle and story may have more of a cinematic appeal but what he represents ( ambition for money, occasional violence, self centered braggadocio ) are all foreign elements that existed outside and before hip hop and were brought in, Em's style IMO is a bit more organic and pure since it's strongly focused around the art of emceeing which in itself is pure hip hop by essence.
 6 years ago '04        #93
psylence2k 58 heat pts58
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 im starving said:
1. sorry bad example, replace with az or big l or something, you get my point though haha

2. I do understand that Jay isn't as involved in his artists.. but eminem nurtures his artists, he is EXTREMELY hands on in the making of his artists, and I believe that is why people see him as the more charitable character.. If we are going based solely off how many rappers each has signed, i believe jay would come out on top.. but people see eminem as the person who puts his artists out etc..

but I feel like jay does the same.. every artist that has flopped has had atleast 1 or 2 music videos, or has features in singles with jay himself... but I feel like jay came up from NOTHING, and hustled his own way into the industry, bought himself a deal and came up from scraps.. while eminem battled his way in and got found and signed, and then dre basically nurtured him the way em now nurtures his artists..

Jay-z has a more of a 'if you're a man, prove yourself and make your own way' attitude towards his artists.. people complain about him not pushing j cole, but the dude has 2 videos, a worldwide tour, interviews on hot 97, on 106 and hot 97 on release date etc. etc... jay-z may just want his artists to be men.. instead of boys looking for handouts.. but that's a completely different argument.


3. I'm not going to lie when that beef was going down, I was the 1% that was on jay-z's side.. i felt like his lines had more real life basis as to where nas' lines were more just lyrical jabs that were comical.. b/c jay-z did pull out the gun at the tour with lp, he did sleep with carmen, and i didnt like nas too much b/c he called pac fake, bi*ched the fu*k out when pac confronted him.. then compared himself to pac in got yourself a gun.. that sh*t was mad wack to me when i was young.. and dont get me wrong i know every line in illmatic, but i still dont dig nas that much to this day haha...

My point in that argument was that we're talking about who personifies hip hop.. and jay-z's beef was a HUUUUGE point in hip hop.. it changed the content of mixtapes, it changed the content of shows.. everyone in hip hop was on their toes waiting for the next track... it made a MAJOR impact in hip hop culture even to this day... jay-z nas beef.. those words reverberate even with white kids our age... eminem's beef was more of the sh*t you find at cooley high's lunchtables, just underground rappers trying to get noticed type beef you know? even if jay did lose the lyrical battle.. the guy signed nas later and basically drags him around like an adopted son nowadays.. jay is just that n*gga man haha

2. It's not even as much as Jay not nurturing his artist but also him actually using/ holding them back. The way he did with Young Gunz , the way he TRIED to do with Kanye , the way he did with the Dips, the way he did with Beans and more and more. Em has always been supportive of his artist doing whatever, Jays always wanted to be #1 and constantly sabotaged others in the process which isn't really helpful to the culture just his own career.

3. Jay was more factual, but that's why he had it easier IMO, he had everything laid out, what Nas did was a pure act of emceeing magic. Only a skilled and creatively gifted lyricist could've made something out of nothing and made it sound believable like he did with Ether. He basically used his skill to pull the bunny out of the hat which IMO was emceeing at its' finest. Whether it was fully factual or not doesnt matter now because the blow did its' intended damage.


Last edited by psylence2k; 10-13-2011 at 03:24 AM..
 6 years ago '04        #94
psylence2k 58 heat pts58
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 Blood Edge said:
does either of those artists give a fu*k about that topic?
This is Jay-Z we're talking about, dude got pissed at Irv Gotti for letting DMX spit after him on a track.
 10-13-2011, 03:37 AM         #95
im starving  OP
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 psylence2k said:
2. It's not even as much as Jay not nurturing his artist but also him actually using/ holding them back. The way he did with Young Gunz , the way he TRIED to do with Kanye , the way he did with the Dips, the way he did with Beans and more and more. Em has always been supportive of his artist doing whatever, Jays always wanted to be #1 and constantly sabotaged others in the process which isn't really helpful to the culture just his own career.

3. Jay was more factual, but that's why he had it easier IMO, he had everything laid out, what Nas did was a pure act of emceeing magic. Only a skilled and creatively gifted lyricist could've made something out of nothing and made it sound believable like he did with Ether. He basically used his skill to pull the bunny out of the hat which IMO was emceeing at its' finest. Whether it was fully factual or not doesnt matter now because the blow did its' intended damage.

jay has always had an ego problem.. and honestly the dude hated k!lla cam.. and open handed slapped juelz.. so i can't really argue on that front haha

as far as the previous post about the differences in life stories from em and jay-z.. it does seem it comes more as a opinion based matter in the end.. but i definitely dont think jay is hip hop b/c he is black and made the scarface route to fame..

eminem's path to me was just the typical battle rapper who got noticed by a big name and then was nurtured into an amazing artist.

jay-z's path to me was completely self made, him, biggs and dame went into def jam and figuratively kicked the door down and paved their own path which slowly became this engulfing road that basically shaped a lot of what you see now in hip hop.

that is the main reason i see jay as hip hop more.. because he has re-defined it, changed it, progressed it in many ways.. eminem didnt really change anything aside from the fact that hey white people can rap too.. he just simply did it better than everyone with complex lyrics and stories. this is why i see eminem as the hip hop legend/enthusiast like krs-one.. and i see jay-z as more of a personification.. because in the book of hip hop you got ice-t being the first to do gangster rap etc.. but then you got jay-z in there as well... like he said kids thought cristal was beer in imaginary player.. he changed the entire direction and content of hip hop, for better or worse.




3. yeah jay did have it easier, but i always feel like the real life lines hit much harder, maybe not for the crowd.. but for the recipient of such blows.. that sh*t hurts deeper than a simple cosmetic insult.. not to take anything away from nas and ether.. nas won x100000 after ether and the beef without a doubt.. but that beef is another story and is mostly opinion.. but just the fact me and you are arguing about who won in that beef is just another example of how iconic this camel looking fu*k ugly kid is man haha
 6 years ago '04        #96
therealness 1 heat pts
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Yall say Em was just tryna promote his brand. But was this not Em's 2nd time doing the BET cypher? The first was with Mos Def and Black Thought. Jay would never do that. Nor would he spit with slaughterhouse. Cuz theres nothing to gain from it and he feels like he's above it at this point.

Jay is the businessman/mc. He takes calculated risk and is only gonna do something if he feels its going to make him money or make his brand stronger. And he's always been like that. He started that whole "Im not a rapper. Im a hustler that raps" thing. And yes I think at this point he only raps to keep himself relevant and cuz it makes him some money. But that doesnt mean he doesnt love the culture. Cuz to me he still keeps it hip hop.

Em is the pure mc/outcast to the game always looking to rhyme and looking to gain exceptance. He will rhyme with anyone anywhere anytime any place. He came up doing it in the battle circut so its nothing to him. And he knows he's white so his shiit has to b that much better. I think him being white is part of the reason y he tries so hard. And its gotten him this far. But to me Em has done way more things that are not hip hop then Jay. But he's still a dope a.ss mc and can spit his a.ss off.

As far as Renegade goes to me its one of the best Rap songs of all time and they both held their own. They both came from two diff perspectives and it made for a dope a.ss track. But if I had to give it to someone I would give the slight edge to Em.

And last but not least Ive seen some ppl throw around Waynes name saying y doesnt he get backlash for not doing the cypher. And I dont know y he hasnt doesnt done a cypher yet but Wayne has worked with everyone and still works with cats ppl have never heard of. I dont think he would have a prob doing it. I could see him doing it before Nas. We'll prob c a Young Money cypher next year.
 6 years ago '07        #97
A-L-P 8 heat pts
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 psylence2k said:
I think you're missing the point , nobody is mad that Jay is out there running businesses , getting money, topping forbes , and all that, I love the fact that he's broadening the culture and giving it exposure commercially in places it's never been, he deserves his spot in hip hop history for THAT single aspect of course. I think he's top 5 D.O.A. undeniably off his past work.

I think the main problem that ppl have with him is that his persona definitely comes off as if he thinks he's bigger than the culture itself. He's a very selfish and self centered individual, not saying that's a good or bad thing, he's a business man and a hustler first that's ALWAYS been his M.O. , he wanted to stay a hustler until he found out how much money he could make off rap. He's no different than any other greedy and ruthless CEO in corporate america, now it's up to either call that smart or heartless. Tho since his early days there's always been stories that date even back to his childhood or him stepping on ppl to get where he needed to be . I mean the kid shot and almost k!lled his own brother over jewelry and would eat whole bags of cookies without even giving his friends one. When you add up all the little shyt you can pretty much tell what type of person someone is. It's no surprise that he would go on to steal people's beats, pay the "homies" in his crew pennies to open for him when they had bigger hits at the time, and even kept his own friends from eating when he felt threatened. Out of all that swagger and ego his selfishness and insecurities leak through clearly. From girls callin him ugly to his dad leaving him he clearly has emotional trauma he tries to overcompensate for.

Your comment about criticism coming from fans and not artists is pretty inaccurate. 90% of the ppl Jay has had friendships with that we know of publicly have all fell out with him and call him a snake. Artists all share the same stories of meeting him and his standoffish aura and c*cky ego rubbing them the wrong way. It definitely seems like out of all the artists that know him at least half if not most really dont like him as a person.

On the other hand artists that have actually met Em said he's pretty humble and genuine ( as J.Cole said) which wouldn't be expected for an artist of his stature. He's constantly helping indie and lesser known artists get on, being hands on, and spending his very very valuable time doing work on their projects that he knows he's just gonna make pennies on if that. Jay-Z just signs dudes , gives them keys to the studio , books his flight for saint tropez and tells them not to call him until they have the album finished with a number 1 hit spinning. Not saying he's obligated to help , I cant really say it's the "wrong" thing to do, but it's clear here who puts their ego before the culture and who doesn't.

and I definitely wouldn't but Ye and Jay in the same boat, Ye no matter how egotistical and arrogant he make come off as, clearly has the same intense "passion" for the music that Em does. Like Eminem he's a perfectionist and will spend hours and hours upon days and days and weeks in the studio to perfect one song and he like Em CONSTANTLY gives praise and checks for lesser known artists ( like when Ye called Banks and Joell two of the best and most underrated rappers in the game, Top 5 DOA, etc ). Ye has a huge ego but he constantly puts it aside for the sake of the culture , Jay rarely if ever does that. They both love the music , Em constantly listens and memorizes his artists music and recites it back to them, Jay probably slashes his artist budget and blocks their numbers when they fail to recite his own shyt back to him. I mean just look at his inner circle, there's a reason why 95% of his friends are gone.
With the Jay criticism, that's what it seems to boil down to....people just don't like him as a person.

I've actually heard that Jay is pretty cool in person from alot of artist (?uestlove, Kanye, Timbaland, J. Cole, Ananda Lewis, Nas's ex wife Carmen, Yung Chris, Freeway)...and alot of producers like working with him due to his "lack of ego" in the studio. I'm sure the people who speak bad about him were the ones who fell out with him (they all had there most success while being allied with him).....even Dehaven (his rival) said Jay was cool to be around. I'm not saying he probably isn't self centered to an extent but I know people with his "percieved" personality type...economical with words, standoff-ish, observant, slow to warm up to new people (they say the same about Nas).......idk maybe that's what serves him well as a hustler in the streets and in the office....in a way it does seem like some kind of front or defense mechanism due to whatever emotional trauma he may have faced when he was younger.
 6 years ago '05        #98
sheedawg 2 heat pts
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 A-L-P said:
With the Jay criticism, that's what it seems to boil down to....people just don't like him as a person.

I've actually heard that Jay is pretty cool in person from alot of artist (?uestlove, Kanye, Timbaland, J. Cole, Ananda Lewis, Nas's ex wife Carmen, Yung Chris, Freeway)...and alot of producers like working with him due to his "lack of ego" in the studio. I'm sure the people who speak bad about him were the ones who fell out with him (they all had there most success while being allied with him).....even Dehaven (his rival) said Jay was cool to be around. I'm not saying he probably isn't self centered to an extent but I know people with his "percieved" personality type...economical with words, standoff-ish, observant, slow to warm up to new people (they say the same about Nas).......idk maybe that's what serves him well as a hustler in the streets and in the office....in a way it does seem like some kind of front or defense mechanism due to whatever emotional trauma he may have faced when he was younger.
 6 years ago '10        #99
Mocking Mind 2 heat pts
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 psylence2k said:
I think the reason ppl want him to prove himself because there’s been multiple times in his career when challenges have presented themselves that he’s taken the “easy” way out, and fans feel cheated by that. Artists aint remembered for what they did in the calm but what they conquered in the storm. Only time Jay has ever been to a legitimate war was with Nas but he obviously never knew it would’ve turned out like that. He thought Nas was old and washed up and would be ripe for the picking, and easy k!ll he thought cuz at the time Nas appeared to be having trouble handling Bleek in their subliminal wars. If he even had the slightest idea that Nas had that in him at that point in time he would’ve never dropped Takeover IMO. Dude has Lebron syndrome , u cant ball out and call yourself the best and then when the heat is on in the 4th you choke up.

The reason why ppl think he’s more passionate about preserving his legacy than doing what’s best for the culture is because nobody can really remember the last time Jay-Z did anything “selfless” for any artist or for hip hop. Matter fact he’s always done the opposite even to the point or robbing other artists, even those in his own camp. What has Em done ? He put on D-12 (hot garbage) and Obie, did songs with artists not on his label that were garbage and not even poppin ( Trick Trick , Boo ya Tribe , Sticky Fingaz , etc), he did beats for free for other artists for YEARS, he wanted 50 to have his own label when 50 offered to put all of G-Unit on Shady, he puts on Yela and Slaughter. What did Jay-Z do ?? He damn near k!lled his brother, didn’t show up for JaZ’s video after he put him on, he kicked Joe Budden off the Roc the Mic Tour after their back and forth, he used the Young Gunz for promotion on his tour and kept 80k show money and gave them $900 a piece when they had the bigger buzz, all the shyt he did to beans including not letting him go and eat very good at G-Unit when he knew he didn’t have any plans for him , he kicked the Dips off the Roc-A-Fella tour because they had a bigger buzz than he did at the time , he tried everything to block Kanye from becoming a solo artist, he watched Dame’s life crumble and spit on him with subliminal shots, and instead of coming in with artists on the ground floor and helping them build buzz, he waits until they have a #1 hit and jumps on their shyt to blow himself up.

If all this doesn’t point out that he simply is just “using” the culture for his own gain then I really don’t understand where you’re getting your perspective from. Dude is just take, take , take , take with no give, and whenever he feels threatened due to his insecurity and need to ALWAYS be on top he wont think twice about stepping on a few of his own to stay on top. Of course I’ve said already lyrically he’s that dude. Nobody is questioning his music, but at the same time when you compare him to other legends and the debate gets neck and neck and you have to go to the intangibles then Jay loses points there for underachieving and ducking and dodging adversity his whole career. Do you love hip hop? I don’t know how anyone who does can know that someone’s mind state is not “ What can I do for Hip hop” but solely “ What can hip hop do for me “ ?? Yea he’s given you good music but that’s only because you’ve lined his pockets, he doesn’t constantly put out music because he’s passionate if so then the music would actually be a lil better. He only puts out music at this point because he understands that he needs his reputation as “Jay-Z” the rapper “ to fuel the marketability of his brand which keeps all his other businesses profitable. It’s a business thing, why do you think he’s the only nets owner that gets interviewed when he only owns like 2% of the team? It’s because he’s a musician/celebrity/ beyonce’s husband. He needs the music to keep his name out there. It’s clear as day, I dunno why you cant see this.
Props.
 6 years ago '07        #100
r.burgundy 16 heat pts16
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why do white people in tha burbs always wanna talk about what real hip hop is lol
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