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 6 years ago '04        #101
psylence2k 58 heat pts58
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 Ant McQueen said:
Pac wasn't great lyrically but he had a message? That makes no sense. Him having a " message " is what makes him great lyrically. If you wanna talk about technicality and various cadences... that's one thing, but that's totally different from the words being said.
I always get into disagreements on here about the term "lyrical". For some reason most hip hop heads always a.ssociate lyrical ability to sheer technical prowess when it comes to rap . To me Pac's lyrics had more depth , substance , and emotion to them than damn near any other rapper. To me that makes him "lyrical" . Ppl on here look at metaphors, multi's, punchlines, and other flashy means of bar composition as the only standard of lyricism. Shyt is bullshyt , if that was the case then Canibus, Fabolous , and Ghostface should be considered more lyrical than Pac yet at the same time they agree that Pac's catalog shyts on those rappers.

Wake up ppl, metaphors, punches, multis, etc doesn't make you better lyricist, shyt just makes you a better RAPPER, it doesn't make you better lyrically, it just makes you better technically. Lyrics to me should've always been about substance and WHAT you're saying not HOW you're saying it . Rappers always say simple ordinary shyt in a articulate manner and get praised but when rapperes like Pac say deep and articulate shyt in a simple manner ppl say they're not lyrical, shyt is just stupid.
 6 years ago '09        #102
thegoldenhero 3 heat pts
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judging biggie two albums to jay-z first two i take biggie but if we talking as a whole it's hard comparing a dude who has two albums when the other has like 11
 6 years ago '10        #103
Ant McQueen 16 heat pts16
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 psylence2k said:
I always get into disagreements on here about the term "lyrical". For some reason most hip hop heads always a.ssociate lyrical ability to sheer technical prowess when it comes to rap . To me Pac's lyrics had more depth , substance , and emotion to them than damn near any other rapper. To me that makes him "lyrical" . Ppl on here look at metaphors, multi's, punchlines, and other flashy means of bar composition as the only standard of lyricism. Shyt is bullshyt , if that was the case then Canibus, Fabolous , and Ghostface should be considered more lyrical than Pac yet at the same time they agree that Pac's catalog shyts on those rappers.

Wake up ppl, metaphors, punches, multis, etc doesn't make you better lyricist, shyt just makes you a better RAPPER, it doesn't make you better lyrically, it just makes you better technically. Lyrics to me should've always been about substance and WHAT you're saying not HOW you're saying it . Rappers always say simple ordinary shyt in a articulate manner and get praised but when rapperes like Pac say deep and articulate shyt in a simple manner ppl say they're not lyrical, shyt is just stupid.
I think you're the first person I've seen on here with the same idea of what lyricism is as me. I thought I was trippin' or something.
 6 years ago '04        #104
Ra-da-god 23 heat pts23
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 psylence2k said:
I always get into disagreements on here about the term "lyrical". For some reason most hip hop heads always a.ssociate lyrical ability to sheer technical prowess when it comes to rap . To me Pac's lyrics had more depth , substance , and emotion to them than damn near any other rapper. To me that makes him "lyrical" . Ppl on here look at metaphors, multi's, punchlines, and other flashy means of bar composition as the only standard of lyricism. Shyt is bullshyt , if that was the case then Canibus, Fabolous , and Ghostface should be considered more lyrical than Pac yet at the same time they agree that Pac's catalog shyts on those rappers.

Wake up ppl, metaphors, punches, multis, etc doesn't make you better lyricist, shyt just makes you a better RAPPER, it doesn't make you better lyrically, it just makes you better technically. Lyrics to me should've always been about substance and WHAT you're saying not HOW you're saying it . Rappers always say simple ordinary shyt in a articulate manner and get praised but when rapperes like Pac say deep and articulate shyt in a simple manner ppl say they're not lyrical, shyt is just stupid.
exactly its not bad, that he was basic Scarface was basic too but he made dope music Pac was Raw & emotional but he was a rapper aswell so he must be judged on his rap skills the same as anyone else. As far as rapping goes pac wasn't lyrical profound yes, Deep yes but in relation to rapping (which is what pac did) "being Lyrical" is based on technical skill so yes Canibus was more lyrical than 2pac and so was Jay-z and Biggie and alot of other cats to come out of that Era the 90's was the spitting era.

its unfair to act like Pac was the only one saying anything or having a message cause thats some Bullsh*t, in the 90's alot of these rappers had deep messages and said alot of deep sh*t, you gonna tell me Nas wasn't saying profound sh*t on Illmatic? or blackthought wasn't saying deep sh*t on Illadelph Halflife? how bout Rakim on the 18th Letter? Pac said alot of General sh*t that was easy to get and it hit home for alot of people but you take someone like Rakim who could take those same subjects but take you way deeper plus add some flair to it that's Art that's what being lyrical is about.

"My flesh, no n*gga could test
My soul is possessed by D'Evils in the form of diamonds and lexuses
The Exorcist, got me doing sticks like Homie
You don't know me, but the whole world owe me - strip!
Was thought to be a pleasant guy all my fu*king life
So now I'm down for whatever, ain't nothing nice
Throughout my junior high years it was all friendly
But now this +Higher Learning+ got the +Remy+ in me
Liquors invaded my kidneys
Got me ready to lick off, mama forgive me
I can't be held accountable, D'Evils beatin me down, boo
Got me runnin with guys, making G's, tellin lies that sound true
Come test me, I never cower
For the love of money, son, I'm giving lead showers
Stop screamin, you know the demon said it's best to die
And even if +Jehovah Witness+, bet he'll never testify, D'Evils..." Jay-z

^^^ thats my favorite verse of one of my favorite jay songs cause of how it was put together I don't understand how people can hear the cleverness in that and say Jay didn't have skill or how he'd didn't talk about sh*t. At first glance it just sound like some street sh*t but if you listen to the different references punchlines he said throughout the song thats what make it dope and make it stand as art rather than alot of the trap rap of today that says the same sh*t just more blunt the time put into the double meanings and witty wordplay is what makes it dope and that's what being Lyrical is, Nas did this, same as biggie eminem Ghostface and alot of other emcees hailing from the 90's era Pac just didn't do that not taking anything from him he just was lyrically inclined like that
 6 years ago '11        #105
HipHop Since 93 11 heat pts11
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 Ra-da-god said:
exactly its not bad, that he was basic Scarface was basic too but he made dope music Pac was Raw & emotional but he was a rapper aswell so he must be judged on his rap skills the same as anyone else. As far as rapping goes pac wasn't lyrical profound yes, Deep yes but in relation to rapping (which is what pac did) "being Lyrical" is based on technical skill so yes Canibus was more lyrical than 2pac and so was Jay-z and Biggie and alot of other cats to come out of that Era the 90's was the spitting era.

its unfair to act like Pac was the only one saying anything or having a message cause thats some Bullsh*t, in the 90's alot of these rappers had deep messages and said alot of deep sh*t, you gonna tell me Nas wasn't saying profound sh*t on Illmatic? or blackthought wasn't saying deep sh*t on Illadelph Halflife? how bout Rakim on the 18th Letter? Pac said alot of General sh*t that was easy to get and it hit home for alot of people but you take someone like Rakim who could take those same subjects but take you way deeper plus add some flair to it that's Art that's what being lyrical is about.

"My flesh, no n*gga could test
My soul is possessed by D'Evils in the form of diamonds and lexuses
The Exorcist, got me doing sticks like Homie
You don't know me, but the whole world owe me - strip!
Was thought to be a pleasant guy all my fu*king life
So now I'm down for whatever, ain't nothing nice
Throughout my junior high years it was all friendly
But now this +Higher Learning+ got the +Remy+ in me
Liquors invaded my kidneys
Got me ready to lick off, mama forgive me
I can't be held accountable, D'Evils beatin me down, boo
Got me runnin with guys, making G's, tellin lies that sound true
Come test me, I never cower
For the love of money, son, I'm giving lead showers
Stop screamin, you know the demon said it's best to die
And even if +Jehovah Witness+, bet he'll never testify, D'Evils..." Jay-z

^^^ thats my favorite verse of one of my favorite jay songs cause of how it was put together I don't understand how people can hear the cleverness in that and say Jay didn't have skill or how he'd didn't talk about sh*t. At first glance it just sound like some street sh*t but if you listen to the different references punchlines he said throughout the song thats what make it dope and make it stand as art rather than alot of the trap rap of today that says the same sh*t just more blunt the time put into the double meanings and witty wordplay is what makes it dope and that's what being Lyrical is, Nas did this, same as biggie eminem Ghostface and alot of other emcees hailing from the 90's era Pac just didn't do that not taking anything from him he just was lyrically inclined like that
thats what I was trying to say
 6 years ago '04        #106
psylence2k 58 heat pts58
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 Ra-da-god said:
exactly its not bad, that he was basic Scarface was basic too but he made dope music Pac was Raw & emotional but he was a rapper aswell so he must be judged on his rap skills the same as anyone else. As far as rapping goes pac wasn't lyrical profound yes, Deep yes but in relation to rapping (which is what pac did) "being Lyrical" is based on technical skill so yes Canibus was more lyrical than 2pac and so was Jay-z and Biggie and alot of other cats to come out of that Era the 90's was the spitting era.

its unfair to act like Pac was the only one saying anything or having a message cause thats some Bullsh*t, in the 90's alot of these rappers had deep messages and said alot of deep sh*t, you gonna tell me Nas wasn't saying profound sh*t on Illmatic? or blackthought wasn't saying deep sh*t on Illadelph Halflife? how bout Rakim on the 18th Letter? Pac said alot of General sh*t that was easy to get and it hit home for alot of people but you take someone like Rakim who could take those same subjects but take you way deeper plus add some flair to it that's Art that's what being lyrical is about.

1. Yes of course he was a rapper, nobody saying he shouldn't be judged on his rap skills as a RAPPER. That's what I said in my post before, all that technical shyt applies to the art of RAP. Pac wasn't a great rapper, his technical ability was mediocre, so yes as a rapper he sucked. As someone who was able to pen substantial lyrics is where he excelled and shined like no other. Like I said before that technical shyt should apply to rapping not the composition of lyrics (lyricism). Pac wrote timeless lyrics, he didn't write great raps. Therefore he sucked as a rapper but was amazing as a lyricist. Michael Jackson, Bob Dylan , John Lennon and others get praised for being great lyricists in their respective genres when they penned masterpieces way simpler than any Pac song. Why is it in rap ppl try to always equate lyricism to technicalities ?

2. This is what I have a problem with, lyricism shouldn't correlate with just technical skill, this pseudo definition was some shyt pretentiously smug hip hop heads came up with in the 80s/90s and everyone just ran with it to feel more smug about their musical tastes in rap. There is no dictionary definition that you can use to show that lyricism is anywhere near confined or mainly related to that aspect of writing. It was a concept that was made up and ppl have just ran with it since.

3. I never said Pac was the only one with a message, but I will say that IMO he had stronger message driven catalog than any other rapper of his commercial stature both in quantity and quality. IMO nobody is touching him there including Nas. As far as a conscious message goes, Illmatic is not even touching 2Pacalypse now in that particular aspect which isn't even Pac's best album but I compare the two because they were debut's. Brenda's got a Baby, Trapped, and If My Homie's Call alone put the record way above Illmatic in terms of social content, and guess what ? Those were SINGLES on a DEBUT album ! What other commercial rapper put his socially conscious message driven music to the forefront like that?? They both influenced each other but you can clearly see that Pac influenced Nas way more in his future albums. The difference between Pac and most rappers is that he didn't just limit that type of substance to just a few bars in a middle of a verse, he was passionate enough to make whole songs and make those songs his singles. You can easily tell that his art was way more message driven than damn near any rapper.
 6 years ago '04        #107
Ra-da-god 23 heat pts23
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 psylence2k said:
1. Yes of course he was a rapper, nobody saying he shouldn't be judged on his rap skills as a RAPPER. That's what I said in my post before, all that technical shyt applies to the art of RAP. Pac wasn't a great rapper, his technical ability was mediocre, so yes as a rapper he sucked. As someone who was able to pen substantial lyrics is where he excelled and shined like no other. Like I said before that technical shyt should apply to rapping not the composition of lyrics (lyricism). Pac wrote timeless lyrics, he didn't write great raps. Therefore he sucked as a rapper but was amazing as a lyricist. Michael Jackson, Bob Dylan , John Lennon and others get praised for being great lyricists in their respective genres when they penned masterpieces way simpler than any Pac song. Why is it in rap ppl try to always equate lyricism to technicalities ?

2. This is what I have a problem with, lyricism shouldn't correlate with just technical skill, this pseudo definition was some shyt pretentiously smug hip hop heads came up with in the 80s/90s and everyone just ran with it to feel more smug about their musical tastes in rap. There is no dictionary definition that you can use to show that lyricism is anywhere near confined or mainly related to that aspect of writing. It was a concept that was made up and ppl have just ran with it since.

3. I never said Pac was the only one with a message, but I will say that IMO he had stronger message driven catalog than any other rapper of his commercial stature both in quantity and quality. IMO nobody is touching him there including Nas. As far as a conscious message goes, Illmatic is not even touching 2Pacalypse now in that particular aspect which isn't even Pac's best album but I compare the two because they were debut's. Brenda's got a Baby, Trapped, and If My Homie's Call alone put the record way above Illmatic in terms of social content, and guess what ? Those were SINGLES on a DEBUT album ! What other commercial rapper put his socially conscious message driven music to the forefront like that?? They both influenced each other but you can clearly see that Pac influenced Nas way more in his future albums. The difference between Pac and most rappers is that he didn't just limit that type of substance to just a few bars in a middle of a verse, he was passionate enough to make whole songs and make those songs his singles. You can easily tell that his art was way more message driven than damn near any rapper.
1. I don't think pac sucked as a rapper he was dope just not lyrical. The reason why skill takes the forefront in rapping unlike any other Genre is because Rapping is Less melody driven than singing that's what seperates us from a Micheal or John lennon. unlike singing the techniques of how a Rap verse is put together takes the forefront rather than just how it sounds that's how we gauge Lyricism, Style is a big factor just as much as content and meaning, you have alot of smug elitist that uses skill in order to hate but I'm not one of them I grew up listening to all these cats and I rap myself I study this sh*t up and down I've worte papers in highschool defending rap lyrics and explaining the Art behind the words If you actually do this sh*t it goes alot deeper than the surface

2. now as far as pac and his message I disagree on him standing out above all because he was a man of many messages so while he said some profound sh*t on his first albums that touched you he was just as quick to denounce that message when he signed to death row, brenda's got a baby turned into how do you want it and keep ya head up turned into toss it up and guess what? those were singles too with much more money behind them than his previous works people can accuse Nas of the same as he tried to crossover but the difference is Nas was able to re-create and re-connect himself with his roots Pac died before he got the chance to do that so that image he created at deathrow kinda served as his last testament while it doesn't completely drown out his overall message you can't deny the fact Pac lost his way towards the end of his life.

Like I said you look at it like him not being lyrical is bad most of us are not saying that at all their were many emcees that were basic rappers but dope artist scarface, Jeru The Damaja Q-tip and De la soul to name some when I say Ill lyricist I'm talking about them cats that saying some sh*t while they are saying something na' mean Nas, Pharoah Monch, Talib kweli, Andre 3000, Rakim these are cats are gifted Lyrically because of what they could do with words along with getting a message across Big L had it Pun had it, Biggie Had it Jay-z has it Pac simply didn't have it like that you can't be the best rapper if you not the best at actually rapping ya dig?

much respect though bro
 09-13-2011, 01:40 AM         #108
Freeze Me 
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Listening to Reasonable Doubt and Life After death..idk how anybody can honestly say Jay wasn't fu*king with Big when Big died.Big was certainly more popular but rapping wise they were on or very near the same level.And I think even Big acknowledged that.Probably even made Big go harder.
 6 years ago '10        #109
uddart 1 heat pts
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 Ra-da-god said:
1. I don't think pac sucked as a rapper he was dope just not lyrical. The reason why skill takes the forefront in rapping unlike any other Genre is because Rapping is Less melody driven than singing that's what seperates us from a Micheal or John lennon. unlike singing the techniques of how a Rap verse is put together takes the forefront rather than just how it sounds that's how we gauge Lyricism, Style is a big factor just as much as content and meaning, you have alot of smug elitist that uses skill in order to hate but I'm not one of them I grew up listening to all these cats and I rap myself I study this sh*t up and down I've worte papers in highschool defending rap lyrics and explaining the Art behind the words If you actually do this sh*t it goes alot deeper than the surface

2. now as far as pac and his message I disagree on him standing out above all because he was a man of many messages so while he said some profound sh*t on his first albums that touched you he was just as quick to denounce that message when he signed to death row, brenda's got a baby turned into how do you want it and keep ya head up turned into toss it up and guess what? those were singles too with much more money behind them than his previous works people can accuse Nas of the same as he tried to crossover but the difference is Nas was able to re-create and re-connect himself with his roots Pac died before he got the chance to do that so that image he created at deathrow kinda served as his last testament while it doesn't completely drown out his overall message you can't deny the fact Pac lost his way towards the end of his life.

Like I said you look at it like him not being lyrical is bad most of us are not saying that at all their were many emcees that were basic rappers but dope artist scarface, Jeru The Damaja Q-tip and De la soul to name some when I say Ill lyricist I'm talking about them cats that saying some sh*t while they are saying something na' mean Nas, Pharoah Monch, Talib kweli, Andre 3000, Rakim these are cats are gifted Lyrically because of what they could do with words along with getting a message across Big L had it Pun had it, Biggie Had it Jay-z has it Pac simply didn't have it like that you can't be the best rapper if you not the best at actually rapping ya dig?

much respect though bro

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I respect your opion tho, well written. But it got some flaws
 6 years ago '04        #110
Ra-da-god 23 heat pts23
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 uddart said:








I respect your opion tho, well written. But it got some flaws
most of those joints weren't heavy pushed singles like Americas most wanted, Toss it up and How do you want it though. I'm not denying that pac had a strong conscious message because he did infact I enjoyed him as a speaker more than a rapper dude had alot to say BUT noone can deny that pac wanted nothing more than to be OUT of prison and for the most part he turned his back on his original message in favor of his new found M.O.B Gang/gangster image to sell records and fufill his contract to deathrow as quick as possible I acknowledge the Fact that he was doing what he felt he had to do BUT HE DIED before he could get back to what he did best and while there was glimpses of the revolutionary poet tupac shakur he created a monstrous distasteful image of himself and unfortunately was k!lled before he could re-invent himself.
 6 years ago '04        #111
Ra-da-god 23 heat pts23
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 uddart said:








I respect your opion tho, well written. But it got some flaws
most of those joints weren't heavy pushed singles like Americas most wanted, Toss it up and How do you want it though. I'm not denying that pac had a strong conscious message because he did infact I enjoyed him as a speaker more than a rapper dude had alot to say BUT noone can deny that pac wanted nothing more than to be OUT of prison and for the most part he turned his back on his original message in favor of his new found M.O.B Gang/gangster image to sell records and fufill his contract to deathrow as quick as possible I acknowledge the Fact that he was doing what he felt he had to do BUT HE DIED before he could get back to what he did best and while there was glimpses of the revolutionary poet tupac shakur he created a monstrous distasteful image of himself and unfortunately was k!lled before he could re-invent himself.
 6 years ago '05        #112
sheedawg 2 heat pts
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In terms of the whole 2pac and rapping thing, I went through a phase where I thought he was just average, at that time I thought Mos Def and Kweli were lyrical gods (lol). Now I'm also older and over that fu*kin lame elitist attitude, Pac easily slides into my top 10, borderline top 5, for the fact that he was the first rapper and that I personally gravitated towards and really had to know everything about, basically he was the first artist I looked at in hip hop seriously as an important figure.

People always forget the main similarity that Pac and Jay both shared, is the song crafting ability. They touched on everything in their music but still made it a very enjoyable listen, same thing Biggie did. They were able to have street, club, girl, mafia etc records and be successful with each one, they made highly enjoyable and timeless music.
 6 years ago '10        #113
uddart 1 heat pts
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 Ra-da-god said:
most of those joints weren't heavy pushed singles like Americas most wanted, Toss it up and How do you want it though. I'm not denying that pac had a strong conscious message because he did infact I enjoyed him as a speaker more than a rapper dude had alot to say BUT noone can deny that pac wanted nothing more than to be OUT of prison and for the most part he turned his back on his original message in favor of his new found M.O.B Gang/gangster image to sell records and fufill his contract to deathrow as quick as possible I acknowledge the Fact that he was doing what he felt he had to do BUT HE DIED before he could get back to what he did best and while there was glimpses of the revolutionary poet tupac shakur he created a monstrous distasteful image of himself and unfortunately was k!lled before he could re-invent himself.
I thought u ment he turned into something else when he went from brenda to how do u want it. But he was still the same guy, he didnt forgot his message. Look at his interviews when he was with deathrow, he is still the same guy. He changed when he got into deathrow and got shot. But his mentality was the big change, his message and his passion didnt.

But I can give you some good interviews if you want, just holla!
 09-13-2011, 07:15 AM         #114
LaRy BLanco 
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If Big was still alive today he'd be married to beyonce and shed be pregnant with her 3rd child...

Fact
 6 years ago '05        #115
sheedawg 2 heat pts
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 LAwLB15 said:
If Big was still alive today he'd be married to beyonce and shed be pregnant with her 3rd child...

Fact


You start off a post that you end with "Fact", with "If Big was still alive today".

 6 years ago '07        #116
A-L-P 8 heat pts
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I think people get caught up in Big's voice and delivery. Jay is better than Big but people don't want to give it to Jay since he's not as liked as Big. If they switched careers and Big was spitting Jay's lyrics over Puff's glossy productions and promotion ya'll would say it was GOAT material. If Jay was spitting Biggie lyrics ya'll would probably say it was too simple compared to Big's songs like d'evils, Can I Live, Dead Presidents ect. I think Jay's voice is the reason why ya'll overlook his lyrics and why people think he was "Biggie's little man" lol. Some people geniunely enjoys Big's music over Jay's but it seems like others just don't want to give it to Jay for personal reasons.

If you never heard their music and you read their lyrics on paper, you would think Jay was the better rapper. If not, then why?
 09-13-2011, 08:20 AM         #117
Nate187um 
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R2D > RD

LAD>Vol.1

thats where it should end.
 6 years ago '07        #118
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 Nate187um said:
R2D > RD

LAD>Vol.1

thats where it should end.
I agree, but personally I think RD and R2D are neck and neck, Jays disadvantage was he didn't have a producer like Puffy to guide him. The thing is, who's to say Big would've made another great album after LAD? Thats why I don't think Big should really be rated like that, too many what if's.
 6 years ago '04        #119
psylence2k 58 heat pts58
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 Ra-da-god said:
1. I don't think pac sucked as a rapper he was dope just not lyrical. The reason why skill takes the forefront in rapping unlike any other Genre is because Rapping is Less melody driven than singing that's what seperates us from a Micheal or John lennon. unlike singing the techniques of how a Rap verse is put together takes the forefront rather than just how it sounds that's how we gauge Lyricism, Style is a big factor just as much as content and meaning, you have alot of smug elitist that uses skill in order to hate but I'm not one of them I grew up listening to all these cats and I rap myself I study this sh*t up and down I've worte papers in highschool defending rap lyrics and explaining the Art behind the words If you actually do this sh*t it goes alot deeper than the surface

2. now as far as pac and his message I disagree on him standing out above all because he was a man of many messages so while he said some profound sh*t on his first albums that touched you he was just as quick to denounce that message when he signed to death row, brenda's got a baby turned into how do you want it and keep ya head up turned into toss it up and guess what? those were singles too with much more money behind them than his previous works people can accuse Nas of the same as he tried to crossover but the difference is Nas was able to re-create and re-connect himself with his roots Pac died before he got the chance to do that so that image he created at deathrow kinda served as his last testament while it doesn't completely drown out his overall message you can't deny the fact Pac lost his way towards the end of his life.

Like I said you look at it like him not being lyrical is bad most of us are not saying that at all their were many emcees that were basic rappers but dope artist scarface, Jeru The Damaja Q-tip and De la soul to name some when I say Ill lyricist I'm talking about them cats that saying some sh*t while they are saying something na' mean Nas, Pharoah Monch, Talib kweli, Andre 3000, Rakim these are cats are gifted Lyrically because of what they could do with words along with getting a message across Big L had it Pun had it, Biggie Had it Jay-z has it Pac simply didn't have it like that you can't be the best rapper if you not the best at actually rapping ya dig?

much respect though bro

I think Pac is the greatest hip hip artist of all time but his rap skills were nothing special, he really wasn't that great at the technical aspect of rap, yes he wasn't that great of a rapper and yes that's based off technicalities because that's what separates rap from other genres, the delivery of the lyrics. That's what makes rap what it is, the technical aspect and how you execute and deliver, that's what separates it from singing. The one thing that all genres share in common is lyrics, and being able to put depth in the content of the words, that's lyricism IMO and that's why lyricism is applied to every genre of music, it's not about the "technical" aspects because then it would something a little more exclusive to rap. Saying you need to be technically amazing in rap to be lyrical is like saying you have to have an extensive vocabulary to be considered intelligent.

Bob Dylan wasn't the greatest singer, he didn't come up with the greatest melodies , there's plenty of others who excelled more at him than this, off the top Michael beats him in both those categories by far, but he's considered a better lyricist than him, and ppl constantly put him in the top 2 or 3 lyricist in his genre not because of his sense of melody or singing but strictly on his content. Dylan is like Pac in that sense, he didn't excel at the technicalities of the genre nor did he finely execute the fundamentals of singing above his peers but it was for his poetic depth and socially conscious substance that ppl view him as arguably the greatest lyricist in his genre. In this sense he is ALOT like Pac, but rap fans are too narrow minded to acknowledge that there can be lyrical depth in simplicity.

I dont think Pac ever denounced his message, ppl always said he was bipolar because of the opposite vibes of his music, some aggressive and some compassionate, but I never really heard material from him where he took a clear stand that blatantly contradicted what he did before. Your example off how he changed on death Row to me is misguided like many others IMO. He had his conscious material before like Brenda's got a Baby and Keep Your Head Up, and he STILL had his conscious material on death Row, did you not hear Wonder Why They Call U Bytch, I Aint Mad At Cha , Baby Dont Cry ?? Then there's the troves of conscious material released posthumously that he recorded on death Row like Changes, Unconditional Love, Letter 2 My Unborn, Ghetto Gospel, etc . IMO Pac was just as conscious on death Row it's just that his party records blew up so huge and at the time he was trying to annihilate Bad Boy financially so he put those to the forefront for the time being. Pac always had a balance, even before death Row he had party joints like I Get Around. You can't compare his duplicity with Nas because Nas changed directions on whole albums, Pac always maintained the balance, he was always the conscious thug, the compassionate militant.

Your last statement repeats what we've already been saying, Pac wasn't a great rapper, but he was a great lyricist off the fact the he wrote classic lyrics with depth and substance.
 6 years ago '07        #120
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 King856 said:
people say how do you know Big would have made another classic after LAD?

you can'r name 5 wack Biggie verses. go ahead I'll wait
I think you're letting your love of Big cloud your ability to think objectively. So you honestly believe that Big would've been the only hip hop artist to never fall off? I can't think of a wack Nas verse neither but he still made some subpar albums, I can't think of a wack Rakim verse but his last album was subpar.
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