Album review: 'Watch the Throne' a royal waste :jaydamn:

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 6 years ago '08        #201
Arson 84 heat pts84
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 Nautilus O said:
Are you trying to say the change clothes verse was better than n*ggas in Paris verse

I hope not. But if you dont like the money talk why listen to him? Reasonable Doubt was a hustler's album Jay's whole career is based off of chasing the money. The fact that he can make songs like Minority Report, This cant be life,Where Have you been, You must love me, and Never Change is show him reflecting on where he came from to where he is now. He has songs like that on this album, but why wouldnt he do the money talk? the album is called "Watch The Throne", what "king" you know thats broke. Hov do sh*t that 99% of us cant do, and you can look at it three ways, "fukk that n*gga I'll never have a rolex", "I wanna get that rolex", or "I want a better watch than that rolex"


TBA era Seriously???? The best lyrics Jay ever gave us is on RD. If you looking for content thats one thing but lyrically Reasonable Doubt is untouchable. But to me the content on WTT fits what the purpose of the album is, they on top of the game and they do sh*t that nobody else can do.
Change clothes is another shallow jay record like n*ggas in Paris. The change clothes verse is by no means great but the subject matter wasn't just 8 variations of how much he balls like it is on NIP. That's my point, Jay is just like every other rapper that's out right now. The dynamics that his verses always had are mostly absent on WTT.

you say they do sh*t that nobody else can do but they're rapping the same mundane sh*t we've come to expect from everybody else.

and RD Jay is long gone, TBA Jay is where the current slacker Jay flow devolved from. That's why I said I would like him to go back to that era


Last edited by Arson; 08-10-2011 at 12:22 AM..
 6 years ago '04        #202
psylence2k 58 heat pts58
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 Nautilus O said:
Thats not true at all, if you look at classic songs from rock and roll and r&b and even blues. Metaphors and lyrical ability have alway been important

Bob Dylan
Sam Cooke
The Beatles
Michael Jackson

Pac made some good songs that resonated with people but as much as he was into poetry he didn't flip his word play often

So what extensive examples of word play did Michael Jackson have ??? I really dont recall him having heavy usage of metaphors and punchlines.

Even the Beatles who had huge hits that ppl consider some of the most classic material in music period had simplicity that was even more basic than the majority of Pac songs.

I actually own a greatest hits CD for both of them and I'm sitting here looking at the track listing, scratching my head , wondering where this extensive/heavy use of word play and metaphors are. Is it Billie Jean? Beat It ? Thriller ? Smooth Criminal ? Bad ? I Wanna Hold Your Hand ? Yesterday ? She Loves You ? Can't Buy Me Love? I need some help here.


Last edited by psylence2k; 08-10-2011 at 12:45 AM..
 6 years ago '04        #203
psylence2k 58 heat pts58
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 vickfan said:
psylence u made a really good post. I'm just chilling now but ima read it over and maybe respond to it in detail tomorrow...

but I just wanted to make a quick comment about Jay's devolved flow.

the thing is, it's not something that's across the board. I feel that on a song like Free Mason he came with sh*t that was as good as or better than anything he's done. he's had plenty of verses post-return that are up to his usual standards. sh*t he had plenty of verses on WTT.

my thing is why is he letting some verses slide and not others
It's not really his flow that bothers me as much as his lyrical direction.

What you're talking about is consistency, he's just becoming more and more inconsistent basically.

He's uninspired, shyt doesn't come to him as easily as before, that happens with age to alot of artists, but I guess he's been so use to great inspiration coming to him automatically for the first half of his career that he might not want to put the extra effort in that's needed now. I guess it irritates most ppl because it seems that as his lyrical ability diminishes his arrogance grows.
 6 years ago '08        #204
Arson 84 heat pts84
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 vickfan said:
psylence u made a really good post. I'm just chilling now but ima read it over and maybe respond to it in detail tomorrow...

but I just wanted to make a quick comment about Jay's devolved flow.

the thing is, it's not something that's across the board. I feel that on a song like Free Mason he came with sh*t that was as good as or better than anything he's done. he's had plenty of verses post-return that are up to his usual standards. sh*t he had plenty of verses on WTT.

my thing is why is he letting some verses slide and not others
Like Psylence said its more the lyrical content. I guess I say TBA flow because that's the most recent I could think of when he was consistently k!lling. So not really a devolved flow, but a lack of subject matter. I agree with what you said tho, Jay's has some good verses post comeback, usually when he isn't just telling us about his watches.

Light Up
Pressure
I Do It For Hip Hop
The Prelude
Lost Ones
Beach Chair
and a lot of stuff on AG was dope.

I dunno why he drops off though


Last edited by Arson; 08-10-2011 at 12:49 AM..
 6 years ago '10        #205
Nautilus O 18 heat pts18
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 psylence2k said:
So what extensive examples of word play did Michael Jackson have ??? I really dont recall him having heavy usage of metaphors and punchlines.

Even the Beatles who had huge hits that ppl consider some of the most classic material in music period had simplicity that was even more basic than the majority of Pac songs.

I actually own a greatest hits CD for both of them and I'm sitting here looking at the track listing, scratching my head , wondering where this extensive/heavy use of word play and metaphors are. Is it Billie Jean? Beat It ? Thriller ? Smooth Criminal ? Bad ? I Wanna Hold Your Hand ? Yesterday ? She Loves You ? Can't Buy Me Love? I need some help here.
Human Nature
Man in the Mirror
Blowin in the Wind
Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds
Yellow Submarine

and there are others but rap isnt the only genre that values creative and complex ways of saying things. Some of the best pop songs in the last twenty years have great lyrical structure not just rhyming Hennessy and enemies
 08-10-2011, 05:15 AM         #206
Prophecy_projet  OP
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In fairness, the Tribune/LA Times/NY Times go a little harsh on Hip Hop albums

They been tough on Jay-Z and Nas's last couple of projects and I think they were decent *shrug*
 6 years ago '04        #207
psylence2k 58 heat pts58
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 Nautilus O said:
Human Nature
Man in the Mirror
Blowin in the Wind
Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds
Yellow Submarine

and there are others but rap isnt the only genre that values creative and complex ways of saying things. Some of the best pop songs in the last twenty years have great lyrical structure not just rhyming Hennessy and enemies

The funny thing is that Michael Jackson didn't even write Human Nature or Man in the Mirror

but let's say he did, what lines in there are wordplay or metaphor deep enough to make them "lyrical" ?? the line about the town being an apple and wanting to take a bite ?? do you know how many rappers would be laughed at for that line ??

Blowin in the wind didn't have any "wordplay" or "metaphors" either, it was a simple and straightforward yet vague and ambiguous song about life's general questions that even Dylan said had no deeper meaning than simply the message the song conveyed about the answer "blowin in the wind".

Yellow Submarine was about....... a Yellow Submarine, the beatles have answered this in numerous interviews for ppl searching for a "deeper" meaning, they said over and over again that it was basically a "children's song", therefore no wordplay or metaphors here either. just simple straightforward lyrics.

Lucy in the sky with diamonds is probably your best shot at meeting your criteria, it contained two short 8 bar verses which probably equates to one 16. Though if simply saying there's marmalade skies and a girl has kaleidoscope eyes without even elaborating is "lyrical" than hey , those are your standards. Whether the song was a children's song or a song about LSD, two short 8 bar verses with a simple metaphoric adjective here and there to describe nothing more than the "visual" of a scene is not really impressively metaphoric or witty to me. Where this song excels is once again it it's beautiful and classic simplicity like almost every other beatle's song.



For you to give me these examples that IMO no where near meet your "criteria" of lyricism (worldplay, metaphors ,etc) but actually meet mine ( simple yet subjectively deep and emotion provoking substance) makes me wonder are you arguing your point or mine. Then to follow it up by generalizing the depth of Pac's music as just rhyming " Hennessy and enemies" clearly shows to me that you are either prematurely dismissive or just not knowledgeable about his catalog in its entirety at all.


Last edited by psylence2k; 08-10-2011 at 01:10 PM..
 6 years ago '05        #208
Switchc2390 10 heat pts10
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 Nautilus O said:
No its not a n*gga like waka flocka is not a lyricist, Pusha T is a lyricist. If you make a wole song saying I'ma k!ll you bi*ch, that's not a lyrical song. I like French Montana and I dont think he's lyrical at all, i also like Beanie Sigel and although they rap about the same stuff, Beanie is a much better rapper because he's lyrical.

Which is why Pac is a good rapper but he's not a lyricist
Technically a lyricist is just someone that writes/sings lyrics. Some lyricists are better than others but I know what you mean.
 6 years ago '04        #209
efromthev 2 heat pts
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Rapping about being better than someone else is pretty much the foundation of hip hop. Bragging is part of what hip hop is all about.

The problem with WTT is the bars just weren't that good. The subject matter of the album I don't care about as much unless it was just on some weird sh*t but it wasn't..it just wasn't as good lyrically and musically as it could have been. I feel like there was a disconnect between the two.
Exactly.. It's not so much that I can't listen to their subject matter but they aren't talking about it in a creative way... Nothing they say about the topics they are talking about are really moving or creative, I feel like anyone could of wrote those lyrics, nothing about them are special.
 6 years ago '04        #210
efromthev 2 heat pts
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LOL @ pac not being lyrical.. You obviously have no idea what being lyrical means.
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