Top 10 SG's of All-Time

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 7 years ago '07        #101
r.burgundy 16 heat pts16
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 DoctorJ said:
Definitely agree w/ you micseles...Opinions are opinions. But when I do things like these I try to use STATs to be unbiased. True, numbers and stats can be scewed, but Number still don't lie and are if they aren't scewed they are VERY measurable...Plus, I personally think people are getting their "favorites" list mixed up with what is the "best" list. Same with music, for me at least, the "best" = biggest stats + most successful + honors/recognition.

Same goes out to R.Burgundy. I don't hate Wade, but I do dislike giving his respect yet at least...BUT, the stats and achievements are there and don't lie. I mean...let's look at Reggie Miller's stat-line.

Reggie Miller: 18.3ppg, 25,279pts, 3.0rpg, 3.0apg, 1.1spg, & 5x All-Star.

Very nice & respectable, and being a big Knicks-hater, I enjoyed pulling for Miller alot as a kid...BUT, his numbers are definitely not deserving of removing anyone off of my top 10 list. He's has NO Rings, NO MVPs, NO All-NBA 1st Team Selections, NO All-Def Team Selections. It's kinda hard to move him up in ranking when there were a HANDFUL of SGs during "his own era that were statistically/successfully better", let alone all other eras in NBA history. Still a big Reggie-fan...but come on, smarter up, the proof is there.
#'s dont tell tha whole story like u said,reggie miller is 1 of tha greatest clutch guys in history,and arguably tha best shooter in nba history.when wade retires,we wont be able to say he was tha best at anything.bein 1 of tha best shooters in nba history should get u a spot on an all time sg list
 7 years ago '07        #102
deemoney23 15 heat pts15
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 malikmoore9 said:
Watch the video son the only difference like I told you before was that Jordan was only 6'6 doing the same moves.


First off, your not showing me anything I haven't already seen. Second, I like how u dont anknowledge anything I said in the post you quoted because you know I'm right and you lost this argument a long time ago... But since I'm at work and I can't post a video, how about you just go watch come fly with me, MJ's playground, Airtime, etc... and then honestly ask yourself without any bias, did Dr. J or anybody else do what I just saw on these tapes before there was Michael Jordan? Did they create the vision and the basis for Mike to do the things he did?? Yes... Did they actually excute the final product of what you watched on those tapes?? No
 7 years ago '11        #103
xrayvisionmedia 
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You can tell some young n*ggas put the list together.

Where is the "ROCK" on the list. And I do not mean the wrestler.
 7 years ago '04        #104
DoctorJ|m 35 heat pts35
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Seeeee....this is were I disagree with you (respectably).

I love Reggie Miller's shot and hustle...but for as clutch as he was...he couldn't lead a team, he couldn't turn that into championship success, wasn't the BEST scoring SG in any year of his career, he couldn't guard the other superstars....If we were talking about JUST "clutch", I mean you can argue people like Chauncey Billups/Robert Horry/Derek Fisher could all be Hall-of-Famers ya feel me!? I mean, think realistically, in an 18 YEAR career, Reggie Miller wasn't even considered an All-Star 13 years! (only made 5 all-star teams); and NEVER was named to an All-NBA 1st or 2nd team for that matter.

So, YES, Reggie Miller he was more clutch and could k!ll the Knicks...and I would greatly agree with you if this was a "most clutch list", "best shooter list", or "3pt specialist list". But for best SG list, there's too many others with MUCH better resumes.
 7 years ago '06        #105
D.O.H. 
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Penny? Really....he had 3 good seasons...look at his stats, he doesn't make list
 7 years ago '04        #106
DoctorJ|m 35 heat pts35
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For R. Burgundy...

I'm still not disagreeing with you that Wade has ALOT more to prove...but just compare the STATS and ACHIEVEMENTS and HONORS...and you'll see what I'm noticing my damn-self.

Reggie Miller:
18 years, 18.3ppg, 25,279pts, 3.0rpg, 3.0apg, 1.1spg, & 5x All-Star, NO Rings, NO MVPs, No All-NBAs.

Vs...

Dwayne Wade:
8 years, 25.4ppg, 13,908pts, 5.1rpg, 6.3apg, 1.8spg, 1.1bpg, 7x All-Star, 1 Scoring Title, 5 All-NBA selections, 1 Ring, 1 Finals MVP.

I mean I don't think you need anymore proof. Just the awards alone make him stand out more. And for ALL the clutch that Reggie Miller was, he was NEVER near leading the league in scoring ever. Likewise, Wade has accumulated all MORE honors/awards/success in the league, in LESS than HALF the years that Reggie did. Reggie was a Great Shooter, an ULTIMATE underdog, and Hustled his Heart Out. But he is not a Top 10 SG in the history of the NBA.

Now, if you asked me who do I like more? = Reggie, definitely. But that doesn't mean he was better or more successful. I hope you feel me man.
 7 years ago '07        #107
r.burgundy 16 heat pts16
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 DoctorJ said:
Seeeee....this is were I disagree with you (respectably).

I love Reggie Miller's shot and hustle...but for as clutch as he was...he couldn't lead a team, he couldn't turn that into championship success, wasn't the BEST scoring SG in any year of his career, he couldn't guard the other superstars....If we were talking about JUST "clutch", I mean you can argue people like Chauncey Billups/Robert Horry/Derek Fisher could all be Hall-of-Famers ya feel me!? I mean, think realistically, in an 18 YEAR career, Reggie Miller wasn't even considered an All-Star 13 years! (only made 5 all-star teams); and NEVER was named to an All-NBA 1st or 2nd team for that matter.

So, YES, Reggie Miller he was more clutch and could k!ll the Knicks...and I would greatly agree with you if this was a "most clutch list", "best shooter list", or "3pt specialist list". But for best SG list, there's too many others with MUCH better resumes.
thats that jordan factor.he denied alot of guys.miller is 2nd all time in 3's made,behind ray allen.you have a guy like hondo on your list who was primarily a small fwd.like i said,if we are going by shooting guards,reggie was 1 of the best shooters eva.i cant say dwade will go down as the best at anything
 7 years ago '07        #108
r.burgundy 16 heat pts16
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 DoctorJ said:
For R. Burgundy...

I'm still not disagreeing with you that Wade has ALOT more to prove...but just compare the STATS and ACHIEVEMENTS and HONORS...and you'll see what I'm noticing my damn-self.

Reggie Miller:
18 years, 18.3ppg, 25,279pts, 3.0rpg, 3.0apg, 1.1spg, & 5x All-Star, NO Rings, NO MVPs, No All-NBAs.

Vs...

Dwayne Wade:
8 years, 25.4ppg, 13,908pts, 5.1rpg, 6.3apg, 1.8spg, 1.1bpg, 7x All-Star, 1 Scoring Title, 5 All-NBA selections, 1 Ring, 1 Finals MVP.

I mean I don't think you need anymore proof. Just the awards alone make him stand out more. And for ALL the clutch that Reggie Miller was, he was NEVER near leading the league in scoring ever. Likewise, Wade has accumulated all MORE honors/awards/success in the league, in LESS than HALF the years that Reggie did. Reggie was a Great Shooter, an ULTIMATE underdog, and Hustled his Heart Out. But he is not a Top 10 SG in the history of the NBA.

Now, if you asked me who do I like more? = Reggie, definitely. But that doesn't mean he was better or more successful. I hope you feel me man.
im not just talking about reggie though.im talking about david thompson,mitch richmond,ray allen,and a few others.dwade has been goin downhill since his chip year,i honestly cant see him playin good into his 30's.he seriious looks like he's on a decline now
 7 years ago '04        #109
DoctorJ|m 35 heat pts35
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"miller is 2nd all time in 3's made"
I agree with you 100%, but this isn't a "Best 3Pt Shooter" list, or a "Most Clutch" list, or "Best Shooting Mechanics" list. Ya know

BUT - this "Jordan Factor" that people joke about alot is kinda a bad excuse...I agree, MJ stopped alot of people from getting rings & MVPs...BUT, come on, the "Jordan Factor" also stopped Reggie Miller from making All-Star teams??? or All-NBA teams??? Think about it...in 18 YEARS, Miller only was considered a 'Top 3' SG in '95, '96, & '98 (3x All-NBA 3rd Team).

ALSO - Peja Stojakevic is 4th ALL-TIME in 3's made...so using your thinking, should we count Peja as one of the Top 10 SF's ever in the NBA!?!? I didn't think so, lol.

AND I've already proved the position selections for a few people on my list. And the numerical proof is enough to open my eyes; while I still don't "like" Wade, I can respect what he's achieved...so I still disagree with you (respectively)...but I think we can agree to disagree. LOL

***What I'm going to do is, much like my Producer Success magazine article I was working on last year...Ima dump all the basketball player stats into my Excel, and attempt to make an article similar for the NBA, for best players at each position, and best players of all-time, and best active. And we'll see how well our "favorite" players fare in it. I think it'll be an eye-opener, hopefully. I'll remember to show you on here, when it's done R. Burgundy.


Last edited by DoctorJ; 06-02-2011 at 03:12 PM..
 7 years ago '04        #110
jeehtoven 51 heat pts51
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 adulel08 said:
Top 10 SG's of All-Time.


u know dam well the (edit: Wade Tmac Kobe) would destroy the likes of Jerry West, Joe Dumar, George Gervin, John Havlicek, Pistol Pete, Big O, Earl Monroe.

I dont give a fu*k if guys were lucky enough to be on great teams so they could acheive more. Playing against a bunch of guys that were only in the NBA because they were over 6'4". U know dam well how talented a player is by watchin their game. not by how many chips/acheivements/longevity tho it helps.

Heres MY TOP 10:

1. Jordan
2. Kobe
3. Tmac
4. Wade
5. Iverson
6. Penny
7. Reggie Miller
8-9-10 Ray Allen/Vince Carter/Derrick Rose/Brandon Roy/Ginobli/Clyde/Big O

am i wrong? obviously im in the group of ppl that havent seen much of the older players.
Are we talking TMac in his prime, or his successful year last year as a bench player on the Pistons?
 06-02-2011, 03:07 PM         #111
malikmoore9 
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[video - click to view]


Show me a dynamic shot that hasn't been replicated. You have one move and that's Lakers and Bulls from right hand to left hand layup. Jordan's statistics are astronomical and his defense is impeccable but I can show you ten post moves of Kobe that make that right to left layup look silly. Get over it a prime Jordan and a prime Kobe if picked up in a street game you can't go wrong choosing either one. Kobe was just as tenacious defensively during the first three championships. But Jordan to his credit was better over the span of his career defensively. But Kobe's offensive talent is undeniable.


Last edited by malikmoore9; 06-02-2011 at 03:10 PM..
 7 years ago '06        #112
ginobili 20|m 39 heat pts39
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basketball is a lot more tricky to judge stats with.... unlike say baseball or football......

hell outta all the great players in the 80's, alex english is all the time leading scorer in that era...... very few people if any, put him in any sf or all time list.... but somehow AI automaticly gets thrown on all these list..... seems to me like people pick thier spots in when to ignore not having team succsess

most cats can't evaluate the worth of the current players, let alone factoring in different era's and styles of play... MOST cats are just name dropping

off topic a bit, but is somewhat understood oscar didn't play on the best squads... but was thier a few season where he could have done more damage in the postseason??..... just playing devils advocate, cause he doesn't much hardware..... stuff like this why most of these list are a joke...

and if volume scoring is taking into consideration, do u lose points for a low fg percantage?.... is being a playmaker valued? is staying powered valued? defense? being a leader?

eye test alone kobe/wade/manu/ allen are the best shooting gurads in my opinion over the last 15 years... them having most of the rings in that time, doesn't hurt... sure u could pick some stats to say differently, is what it is
 7 years ago '06        #113
ginobili 20|m 39 heat pts39
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penny and tmac have no business in any top tier talks.... t-mac is a notorious quitter and penny failed to re invent himself after his injuries.... only had a 4 year window really... I take into consideration how u play, when your natural skill set and athletic ability wears off.... seperates the ballers from the athletes
 7 years ago '04        #114
DoctorJ|m 35 heat pts35
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Now for this DeeMoney/Malik mess...Kobe's definitely a Top SG of all-tme, but has alot of work to do, to eclipse Michael Jordan. Let me show you the comparison:

Michael Jordan:
15 years, 30.18ppg, 32,292pts, 6.2rpg, 5.3apg, 2.4spg, 5 MVPs, 6 Rings, 6 Finals MVPs, 14x AllStar, 11x All-NBA Team, 9x All-Def Team, 1 Rookie of the Year, & 1 Def. Player of the Year.

Kobe Bryant:
14 years, 25.3ppg, 27,868pts, 5.3rpg, 4.6apg, 1.5spg, 1 MVP, 5 Rings, 2 Finals MVPs, 13x AllStar, 13x All-NBA Team, 9x All-Def Team, 1 Rookie of the Year.

I'm an admitted Kobe-hater, but that's pretty freaking close if you go by the numbers. The huge advantage Jordan has is the career points scored, his career average, and those amazing 5 season MVPs. People are complain if they want that the MVP is a popularity contest or not, but fact is, Kobe has only been an MVP once...and has only "lead" a team to a Championship 2 out of 5 times. Fortunately, I'm happy to see that Jordan averaged MORE points, rebounds, a.ssists, & steals than Kobe, in a much rougher/physical era of the NBA. So regardless of yall's talk about who was influenced by who...and/or whether if Kobe has replicated Jordan's moves or not...the fact of the matter is, Jordan is #1, and I'm OK with Kobe being #2.



PS - props to Blacknitro for noticing the numbers and agreeing with me about the Reggie Miller issue.

PSS - Whattup Gino, long time, no speak. LOL


Last edited by DoctorJ; 06-02-2011 at 03:29 PM..
 7 years ago '04        #115
LordBlanco|M 50 heat pts50
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 Rendition said:
Penny, Ray and MJ. my favorites.
:agreement6: :agreement6:
 7 years ago '04        #116
Cassidy187 
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Tmac is not even a legend y is he on the list lmao
 7 years ago '07        #117
r.burgundy 16 heat pts16
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 DoctorJ said:
I agree with you 100%, but this isn't a "Best 3Pt Shooter" list, or a "Most Clutch" list, or "Best Shooting Mechanics" list. Ya know

Plus, I've already proved the position selections for a few people on my list. And the numerical proof is enough to open my eyes; while I still don't "like" Wade, I can respect what he's achieved...so I still disagree with you (respectively)...but I think we can agree to disagree. LOL

***What I'm going to do is, much like my Producer Success magazine article I was working on last year...Ima dump all the basketball player stats into my Excel, and attempt to make an article similar for the NBA, for best players at each position, and best players of all-time, and best active. And we'll see how well our "favorite" players fare in it. I think it'll be an eye-opener, hopefully. I'll remember to show you on here, when it's done R. Burgundy.
right,and thats where those 25,000 points come in handy!wade's on track for a betta career but he's far from there.and like i said its not just reggie,its thompson,richmond,and some others definitely more worthy

cool.i definitely wanna check that out
 7 years ago '06        #118
ginobili 20|m 39 heat pts39
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 Blacknitro said:
1. Do your research.
2. Alex English was a small forward.
3. Iverson has averaged over 30ppg four times. Alex English never did 30ppg. Iverson has 4 scoring titles. Alex English has none.
4. Iverson got waaaay more a.ssists than English.
5. Iverson was a league MVP. English wasn't.
6. Iverson lead his team to the finals. English doesn't even know what the finals look like.
5. Only thing English did better was rebound.


Oscar has a ring and gets his due so I don't know why u brought him up. He's widely respected as a point guard and is usually considered top 15-20 all time if not higher.

Also, a player must be hella good if he's allowed to take 25 shots a game while shooting 39%. Most of these guys don't win rings, tho, so it ain't like anyone is calling iverson top 15 all time or anything like that. But he is a top ten shooting guard all time and top 35 player all time.

And last but not least
The TRUTH (Stats and rings)>>>>>>>>opinions
took my post way outta context, and I cleary said english was a sf

my point is people pick thier spots when to value ppg as opposed to winning rings... and my point with oscar or any player from that previous era's, is how do u know if they under or overachived with thier squads???

got to factor common sense when making stats the final calling card... iverson's a.ssist are overrated.... cause this cat would CONSTANTLY dump the ball of to people with the shot clock running running down and had the ball in his hands more then maybe any sg ever... he was an averege playmaker at best.... hence him quitting when he had to rely on it more
 7 years ago '10        #119
Nautilus O 18 heat pts18
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 luckluck said:
How the fu*k you know? You seen him play?
Yea its called youtube and NBATV, start paying for some cable and then get back to me. Anybody averaging Triple doubles in a league where a triple double is the standard for efficiency would know that Big O is a top 5 all time player, not to mention top 3 college player of all time.


You wanna know how real Big O was

From 1960 to 1968 Robertson was the only player other than Chamberlain or Russell to win the MVP Award. And it took Chamberlain's prodigious point totals to keep Robertson from winning a scoring title.
Lil dumb n*ggas acting like you had see Ali f!ght in person to call him the GOAT stay in ya lane boy

 DoctorJ said:
@Primetime...I already explained the Big O case above...homie only played PG 4 years of his 14 year career, so I don't know what other evidence you need.
When you add up the first 5 years of Big O's career he averaged triple double for those 5 years he played the point, he was not a shooting guard.
 7 years ago '04        #120
DoctorJ|m 35 heat pts35
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@Gino....I see where you getting at with the stats vs. rings argument, and what is more important, and if players under/over-achieved.

For the purposes of my magazine article...the way I'm personally doing my formulas is I'm weighting them in order of "individual success" importance, and then I have to justify why is one weighted more. For example...I'm using a (1.2x) multiplier with a 0.4-increased distribution down each more important category.

So right now in my Excel, I have:

1st) STATS [x2.4], as most important category
(my thinking here is the actual statistics you record determine individual career success in the NBA)
2nd) AWARDS/HONORS [x2.0], as the 2nd most important category
(my thinking here is to be one of the best, you have to earn the achievement/award to back it up)
3rd) MVPs [x1.6], as the 3rd most important category
(my thinking here is while this "could" be popularity contest, a "best" should be considered a season's best)
4th) CHAMPIONSHIP RINGS [x1.2], as the 4th most important category
(my thinking here is "the best" should be rewarding 4 winning it all, BUT didn't wanna give too much credit to players already on a great team)

So in my computation, all the of the STATS are added up and then weighted by the (x2.4) multiplier; then AWARDS/HONORS are added up and then weighted by the (x2.0) multiplier, and then so on. Finally at the end, all these totals are taken and added together to equal a FSI (Final Success Index) Score. And then I rank the players in ANY way I want by this FSI score...of all-time, or by position, or by active/retired status, etc-etc.

So stay tuned!...Should be pretty cool, and just as successful as my Producers Credit article I did.
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