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 11-09-2010, 06:59 PM         #181
-BigC- 
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Well if god can just create stuff out of thin air, can he also make 2+2=5?

I'm not limiting god I am saying if there is a god then he didn't create the universe.

And you put faith in simple men when you read your translations of the scripture . I would put my faith in something that can be proven over trusting people who claim to speak to god.
 7 years ago '10        #182
Kingofnewark 
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God can create anything because he was always there.I can get your points about the translations of the scriptures and why you would put your faith in something that is proven.

Man is greedy by nature so of course there would be some corruptions but that's why you can do your own research and try to find as uncorrupted as possible versions of the Bible.I would use the the Torah,Bible and Qu'ran together and try to make sense of it myself.

Let's say you're wrong?Would you risk eternity for your ways of thinking?
 11-09-2010, 07:14 PM         #183
-BigC- 
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So the basis of you believing in god is because your afraid of being wrong? Sure if hell exists and I am wrong I am very afraid of going there. But at the same time I can see through the bulls**t story that most religions have. A set of guidelines to follow that will keep money and power flowing through the religion, and a scare tactic ending if you don't follow what they say to do.

I think there very well could be some sort of god, but until there is some legitimate evidence of him I can't really believe one exists.

And to twist around your logic, god made me the way I am. He made me question and not believe bedtime stories, so why would he want me to believe one called the Bible?
 7 years ago '06        #184
CuZzA 17 heat pts17
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 -BigC- said:
I'm comparing god to the rules of our universe. Are you saying god can make 2+2=5?
This is EXACTLY the same as asking the question, "Can God create a rock so heavy that he couldn't lift it?". This is asked so many times by skeptics of God, the Bible, Christianity, etc. If God can create a rock that He cannot lift, then God is not omnipotent. If God cannot create a rock so heavy that He cannot lift it, then God is not omnipotent. According to this argument, omnipotence is self-contradictory. Therefore, God cannot be omnipotent. But some of the arguments against omnipotence are just plain silly and stupid. This question (and similarly, yours) is based on a popular misunderstanding about the definitions of words like 'almighty' or 'omnipotent.' These terms do not mean that God can do anything. Rather, they describe the amount of God's power. Power is the ability to effect change - to make something happen. God (being unlimited) has unlimited power, and the Bible affirms this (Job 11:7-11, 37:23; 2 Corinthians 6:18; Revelation 4:8; etc.). Therefore, God can do whatever is possible to be done. God cannot, however, do that which is actually impossible. This is because true impossibility is not based on the amount of power one has, it is based on what is really possible. The truly impossible is not made possible by adding more power. Therefore, unless context indicates otherwise (e.g. Matthew 19:26 where man's ability is being shown in contrast to God's), impossibility means the same thing whether or not God is involved.

Can God create a spherical triangle? Saying that omnipotence requires the ability to do logically impossible things is stupid. God cannot turn truth into a lie. If humans define a triangle as a two dimensional object formed by the intersection of three lines, it makes no sense to ask if God could make one that was spherical. When one says that God is all-powerful, one means that God is able to accomplish all that He desires to do. Even an all-powerful being cannot do what is impossible by definition. God can do many things that are humanly impossible. However, there are some things that even an all-powerful being cannot do.

Can God make 2+2=5? Can God create a rock He cannot lift? The questions are actually asking if God can make a contradiction - which He cannot. Since an all-powerful being will always be able to accomplish whatever He sets out to do, it is impossible for an all-powerful being to fail. The above atheistic argument is arguing that since God is all-powerful, He can do anything - even fail. This is like saying that since God is all-powerful He can be not all-powerful. Obviously, this is absurd. An all-powerful being cannot fail. Therefore, God can create a rock of tremendous size, but, since He is all-powerful, He will always be able to lift it. The ability to fail is not a part of omnipotence. The Bible makes it clear that God is able to do anything He wants to, and that nothing He wants to do is too difficult for Him to accomplish. This is the true meaning of omnipotence.

Could God think of a time when He was not omnipotent? If He can't think of it, He isn't omnipotent, but if He does think of it then there was a time when He wasn't omnipotent? This question is quite similar to the rock question above. The answer, of course, is that God can never think of a time when He wasn't omnipotent. God has always been omnipotent. His inability to contradict His divine character does not mean that He isn't omnipotent.

The atheist distorts the biblical definition of omnipotence in order to 'prove' that God cannot exist. Contrary to their claims, omnipotence does not include the ability to do things that are, by definition, impossible. Neither does omnipotence include the ability to fail. By defining omnipotence as requiring one to have the ability to fail, atheists have defined omnipotence as being impossible. Of course, an omnipotent God would never fail.

These kinds of arguments are clearly illogical and even silly, although they are commonly used by inexperienced atheists. Most intelligent atheists have dropped these kinds of arguments long ago.


 [QUOTE=-BigC- said:
I'm not limiting god I am saying if there is a god then he didn't create the universe.
You automatically limited God when you said He couldn't create the universe.


And you put faith in simple men when you read your translations of the scripture . I would put my faith in something that can be proven over trusting people who claim to speak to god.
Scripture is God-breathed. We're told that. It's the infallible word of God. As Louis Gaussen has a.sserted, "We are not afraid to say it: when we hear the Son of God quote the Scriptures, every thing is said, in our view, on their divine inspiration - we need no further testimony. All the declarations of the Bible are, no doubt, equally divine; but this example of the Saviour of the world has settled the question for us at once. This proof requires neither long nor learned researches; it is grasped by the hand of a child as powerfully as by that of a doctor. Should any doubt, then, a.ssail your soul let it behold Him in the presence of the Scriptures!" Jesus believed the Old Testament was spoken by God Himself, or written by the Holy Spirit’s inspiration, even though the pen was held by men (Matthew 19:4, 5; 22:31, 32, 43; Mark 12:26; Luke 20:37).
 7 years ago '06        #185
CuZzA 17 heat pts17
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Damnit! For the last time: we have nearly 100% accuracy for the writings of the New Testament! (99.5% to be exact, with the only differences being the odd spelling mistake and minor word changes, e.g. 'Jesus Christ', instead of 'Jesus').

I've written for 10 pages now in this thread, and you're not even reading what's being said!

Look on page 2, 3 and, I think, 8. The Bible isn't corrupt, and it hasn't been through dozens of linguistic translations either. Stop coming out with ignorant crap and do some research
 7 years ago '10        #186
Kingofnewark 
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 -BigC- said:
So the basis of you believing in god is because your afraid of being wrong? Sure if hell exists and I am wrong I am very afraid of going there. But at the same time I can see through the bulls**t story that most religions have. A set of guidelines to follow that will keep money and power flowing through the religion, and a scare tactic ending if you don't follow what they say to do.

I think there very well could be some sort of god, but until there is some legitimate evidence of him I can't really believe one exists.

And to twist around your logic, god made me the way I am. He made me question and not believe bedtime stories, so why would he want me to believe one called the Bible?
I would say part of it, at least for me that is.God does beautiful things and at times I do question why some things are the way they are but I have faith.

How do you think religion has stayed with us all these years?

I can't really answer that question.
 7 years ago '06        #187
CuZzA 17 heat pts17
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 -BigC- said:
So the basis of you believing in god is because your afraid of being wrong?
No.


 -BigC- said:
Sure if hell exists and I am wrong I am very afraid of going there. But at the same time I can see through the bulls**t story that most religions have. A set of guidelines to follow that will keep money and power flowing through the religion, and a scare tactic ending if you don't follow what they say to do.
What a disgusting exaggeration.


 -BigC- said:
I think there very well could be some sort of god, but until there is some legitimate evidence of him I can't really believe one exists.
Look what I wrote on the previous page. God isn't going to come down and say hello to you. The Bible tells us that we must believe in Him through faith, and faith alone.


 -BigC- said:
And to twist around your logic, god made me the way I am. He made me question and not believe bedtime stories, so why would he want me to believe one called the Bible?
God created you in His image and likeness (Genesis 1:26), and gave you free will. God won't send you to hell if you don't believe in Him - you'll send yourself.
 11-09-2010, 07:30 PM         #188
-BigC- 
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 CuZzA said:
This is EXACTLY the same as asking the question, "Can God create a rock so heavy that he couldn't lift it?". This is asked so many times by skeptics of God, the Bible, Christianity, etc. If God can create a rock that He cannot lift, then God is not omnipotent. If God cannot create a rock so heavy that He cannot lift it, then God is not omnipotent. According to this argument, omnipotence is self-contradictory. Therefore, God cannot be omnipotent. But some of the arguments against omnipotence are just plain silly and stupid. This question (and similarly, yours) is based on a popular misunderstanding about the definitions of words like 'almighty' or 'omnipotent.' These terms do not mean that God can do anything. Rather, they describe the amount of God's power. Power is the ability to effect change - to make something happen. God (being unlimited) has unlimited power, and the Bible affirms this (Job 11:7-11, 37:23; 2 Corinthians 6:18; Revelation 4:8; etc.). Therefore, God can do whatever is possible to be done. God cannot, however, do that which is actually impossible. This is because true impossibility is not based on the amount of power one has, it is based on what is really possible. The truly impossible is not made possible by adding more power. Therefore, unless context indicates otherwise (e.g. Matthew 19:26 where man's ability is being shown in contrast to God's), impossibility means the same thing whether or not God is involved.

Can God create a spherical triangle? Saying that omnipotence requires the ability to do logically impossible things is stupid. God cannot turn truth into a lie. If humans define a triangle as a two dimensional object formed by the intersection of three lines, it makes no sense to ask if God could make one that was spherical. When one says that God is all-powerful, one means that God is able to accomplish all that He desires to do. Even an all-powerful being cannot do what is impossible by definition. God can do many things that are humanly impossible. However, there are some things that even an all-powerful being cannot do.
If god cannot do logically impossible things, then he cannot create anything out of nothing. If god can only do what is possible, then your religion supports the fact that he cannot have created the Universe because it is not possible to create something out of nothing...

 CuZzA said:
The atheist distorts the biblical definition of omnipotence in order to 'prove' that God cannot exist. Contrary to their claims, omnipotence does not include the ability to do things that are, by definition, impossible. Neither does omnipotence include the ability to fail. By defining omnipotence as requiring one to have the ability to fail, atheists have defined omnipotence as being impossible. Of course, an omnipotent God would never fail.
We atheist don't distort the bible, we interpret it in different ways then you do that is all. The same way you think the Bible is so great, I think its a s**tty piece of writing full of contradictions.
 11-09-2010, 07:33 PM         #189
-BigC- 
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 Kingofnewark said:
I would say part of it, at least for me that is.God does beautiful things and at times I do question why some things are the way they are but I have faith.

How do you think religion has stayed with us all these years?

I can't really answer that question.
Religion has stayed with humans because it is a controlling force. People have always used religion to manipulate governments/countries/populations.

The leader of North Korea is a prime example of what religion has always been used for . I mean didn't we just get done with a president in the United States that used god as an excuse for going to war? Its a cop out for people who are dumb enough to believe it.
 7 years ago '06        #190
CuZzA 17 heat pts17
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 Kingofnewark said:
How do you think religion has stayed with us all these years?

I can't really answer that question.
Jesus prophesied that, regardless of what happens to the world, His word would never be forgotten (Luke 21:33: "Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away."). Here we are, 2000 years later, and the words of Jesus are all around us. Christianity has spread to people around the world and the Bible is the world's most circulated book. Of all the people who have ever lived, can you think of a single person who could have made this claim more effectively than Jesus - that his words would never be forgotten?
 11-09-2010, 07:36 PM         #191
-BigC- 
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Does it matter who has the best claim at that? I mean whoever started Christianity is the worlds best scam artist. Props...
 7 years ago '06        #192
CuZzA 17 heat pts17
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 -BigC- said:
We atheist don't distort the bible, we interpret it in different ways then you do that is all. The same way you think the Bible is so great, I think its a s**tty piece of writing full of contradictions.
Jeeze, whenever there is a discussion about the Bible, sooner or later, someone will comment on all of the contradictions in it. Often what they say isn't a question: "How can you believe a book so full of contradictions?" - but a confident statement: "The Bible is full of contradictions".

I have a suspicion that the vast majority of people who say this have never read the Bible thoroughly. The Bible is often treated like a dictionary - most homes have one, but hardly anyone uses it. We would rather ask a friend how to spell a word rather than look it up ourselves. But though this method is quicker, it is much less reliable. Lots of people get their knowledge of the Bible this way - second-hand. So many of those who make dogmatic statements about the inconsistencies in the Bible are simply repeating well-worn clichés handed on to them by someone else. When asked to produce even one of these supposed contradictions, they are usually at a complete loss.

Here is another dogmatic statement, and I would like to produce some evidence to support it: "The Bible is not full of contradictions". When reading through the Bible, it is common to discover quite a few things that seem to contradict each other. These were all relatively incidental things, certainly not anything with remotely affected the message of the book. And where there have been inconsistencies, as I came to understand more about ancient languages and Jewish culture, and delved deeper into the biblical text, I found that these inconsistencies disappeared.

I'm not the only one either. Thousands of serious scholars have given much of their lives to study the Bible in-depth and have emerged with greater confidence in its reliability. One of these academics, Dr. Gleason Archer, has put together a book that deals with almost all these alleged inconsistencies. In the preface to the book, he writes:

As I have dealt with one apparent discrepancy after another, and have studied the alleged contradictions between the biblical record and the evidence of linguistics, archaeology, and/or science, my confidence in the trustworthiness of scripture has been repeatedly verified and strengthened by the discovery that almost every problem in scripture that had ever been discovered by man, from ancient times until now, has been dealt with in a completely satisfactory manner by the biblical text itself - or else by objective archaeological information.
Don't take Dr. Archer's word on this, or mine; find out for yourself. If you read the Bible with an open mind, you'll come to the same conclusion.
 11-09-2010, 08:17 PM         #193
-BigC- 
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I have actually read quiet a bit of the bible, and I have listened to audio books for the whole thing as well. If you actually look into it, atheist have read the bible and understand it more so then you religious folk.

Without actually going to look up the contradictions just to get into the argument of how I interpreted it, I will just point out that you admitting there are contradictions in a book that you claim is basically the word of god makes the book worthless. If I read something from a professional on a scientific topic and it was full of contradictions I would consider it worthless and thats coming from a human. Shouldn't god be capable of writing a book without contradictions?
 7 years ago '10        #194
GBREEZE 260 heat pts260
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 CuZzA said:
This is one of the dumbest posts I've ever read.



How is giving gifts and Christmas not Christian at all? Many people (Christians and non-Christians) take the idea of gift giving at Christmas back to the scripture in Matthew 2:10-11 which talks about the Magi (wise men) giving gifts to Jesus at his home: "When they saw the star, they were overjoyed. On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped him. Then they opened their treasures and presented him with gifts of gold and of incense and of myrrh."

The Bible gives a wonderful story about the gift God gave us - Jesus Christ - and we can use it as an opportunity to present the Gospel and to show love. Giving and receiving gifts can be part of fulfilling what Paul says about giving in 2 Corinthians 8:7-8, "But just as you excel in everything—in faith, in speech, in knowledge, in complete earnestness and in your love for us—see that you also excel in this grace of giving. I am not commanding you, but I want to test the sincerity of your love by comparing it with the earnestness of others." Paul was talking to the churches who were giving him gifts (financial) so that he could keep on in the ministry. Christians can apply this same lesson to our own lives by giving to others, not just at Christmas, but year round.

Can gift giving become the focus of Christmas instead of thanking the Lord for the gift of His Son (John 3:16)? Unfortunately, yes it can. Does giving gifts have to take away from the true meaning of Christmas? No, it does not. If we focus on the wonderful gift of salvation the Lord has given us (Isaiah 9:6), giving to others is a natural expression of that gratitude. The key is our focus. Is your focus on the gift, or on the ultimate gift-giver, our gracious Heavenly Father? "Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights..." (James 1:17)





Shall I a.ssume you meant 'Satan'?



Anyway, although Santa is a mythical figure, his creation is based in part on a great Christian man named Saint Nicholas of Myra, who lived in the 4th century. Nicholas was born to Christian parents who left him an inheritance when they died, which he distributed to the poor. He became a priest at a young age and was well-known for his compassion and generosity. He had a reputation for giving gifts anonymously, and he would throw bags of money into people's homes (and sometimes down their chimneys) under the cover of night to avoid being spotted.

I believe Nicholas passed away on December 6 sometime around the 340s or 350s AD, and the day of his death became an annual feast in which children would put out food for Nicholas and straw for his donkey. It was said that the saint would come down from heaven during the night and replace the offerings with toys and treats—but only for the good boys and girls. There are many different versions of the legend of Saint Nicholas, but all are the inspiration for the jolly, red-suited gift-giver that we now know as Santa Claus.

Many Christian parents are torn as to whether or not they should play the "Santa game" with their children. On one hand, he makes Christmas fun and magical, leaving wonderful holiday memories for years to come. On the other hand, the focus of Christmas should be on Jesus Christ and how much He has already given us. So, is the story of Santa Claus an innocent addition to Christmas festivities, or is he a subject that should be avoided?

Parents need to use their own judgement in deciding whether or not to include Santa during the holidays, but here are some things to consider: Children who believe that the gifts they receive Christmas morning are from a magical man with unending resources are less likely to appreciate what they have been given, and the sacrifices their parents make in providing them. Greed and materialism can overshadow the holiday season, which is meant to be about giving, loving, and worshipping God. Children whose parents are on a tight budget may feel that they have been overlooked by Santa, or even worse, deemed one of the "bad" boys or girls.

An even more troubling aspect of telling our children that Santa comes down the chimney each year to leave their gifts is that it is, obviously, a lie. We live in a society that believes that lying for the "right" reason is acceptable. As long as it doesn't hurt anyone, it is not a problem. This is contrary to what the Bible tells us. "For the Scriptures say, 'If you want to live a happy life and good days, keep your tongue from speaking evil, and keep your lips from telling lies'" (1 Peter 3:10, NLT). Of course, telling our children that Santa is real is not a malicious deception, but it is, nevertheless, a lie.

Although it is probably not typical, some children honestly feel deceived and betrayed by their parents when they find out that Santa is not real. Children trust their parents to tell them the truth, and it is our responsibility not to break this trust. If we do, they will not believe more important things we tell them, such as the truth about Christ, whom they also cannot physically see.

This doesn’t mean we must leave Santa completely out of Christmas. Children can still play the "Santa game" even if they know it is all pretend. They can make lists, sit on his lap at the mall, and leave out cookies and milk on Christmas Eve. This will not rob them of their joy of the season, and gives parents the opportunity to tell their children about the godly qualities of the real Saint Nicholas, who dedicated his life to serving others and made himself into a living example of Jesus Christ.








It's as if you didn't even read my last post.

Santa 'mocking' God is a vicious exaggeration on a usually-fun and sweet fairytale for kids around Christmas. Just because he 'knows who is naughty or nice' doesn't make him omnipotent.
Similar to Christmas and gift-giving, there is nothing unbiblical about giving and receiving chocolate eggs, as long as the focus for the Christian is that they're celebrating the resurrection of Jesus Christ (hence why Easter falls on a Sunday), and not the turn of longer days.
Once again, you must not understand. Santa also uses what your people would call reindeer. Do you know what those "reindeer" represent?
[pic - click to view]


[pic - click to view]

The Stag God that the occult worship and is also a representation of satan. Keep telling yourself this is "harmless" fun lol. Believe what you want bro, but all the signs point otherwise. I know if were a Chrisrtian I would not celebrate it, but hey its your life. Who started all of these holidays? Who did u learn them from? Answer that......PAGANS. But yet you Christians continue to learn the way of the heathen. You all could easily stop this debate by either a)not celebrating them (because no where in the bible does it say u have to. b) Not celebrate them as the same time as pagans.

Well at least Jehovah's Witness have that part right lol.


Last edited by GBREEZE; 11-09-2010 at 09:09 PM..
 7 years ago '04        #195
persuazion 2 heat pts
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Well I have learned from previous encounters in the past that you cannot argue with a Religious person and win......they quote scriptures as fact and use their faith as proof so how can you argue with that? There are way to many religions and its impossible for them all to be right.......but they can all be wrong. They dont like talking about the "evil" old testament God and would rather ignore all the atrocities that religion has brought on.They wont accept that the Bible was in fact written by man....not some supernatural being.God was not in man's ear whispering all this to him....you might as well live your life by any other fairytale book out there.They wont accept that Religion is all scare tactics and a mostly a huge money making business. Tax free? Prayer hotlines who accept credit cards?Huge sold out arenas with preachers on megatrons and making millions off of books? People giving their last dollar to a church when their lights are about to get cut off. Miracles going from walking on water and parting the red sea to winning 100 bucks on a scratch off ticket. I find it very scary that our world leaders and the people who control our nuclear weapons talk to invisible beings at night and believe in talking snakes.I would normally have no problem with people believing in whatever they want......but when it gets to the point that your beliefs are affecting our culture and our lives then theres a problem.
 7 years ago '10        #196
GBREEZE 260 heat pts260
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 persuazion said:
Well I have learned from previous encounters in the past that you cannot argue with a Religious person and win......they quote scriptures as fact and use their faith as proof so how can you argue with that? There are way to many religions and its impossible for them all to be right.......but they can all be wrong. They dont like talking about the "evil" old testament God and would rather ignore all the atrocities that religion has brought on.They wont accept that the Bible was in fact written by man....not some supernatural being.God was not in man's ear whispering all this to him....you might as well live your life by any other fairytale book out there.They wont accept that Religion is all scare tactics and a mostly a huge money making business. Tax free? Prayer hotlines who accept credit cards?Huge sold out arenas with preachers on megatrons and making millions off of books? People giving their last dollar to a church when their lights are about to get cut off. Miracles going from walking on water and parting the red sea to winning 100 bucks on a scratch off ticket. I find it very scary that our world leaders and the people who control our nuclear weapons talk to invisible beings at night and believe in talking snakes.I would normally have no problem with people believing in whatever they want......but when it gets to the point that your beliefs are affecting our culture and our lives then theres a problem.
Someone that has some sense in this debate? I can't believe it.
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