Non Biased opinions only! Kobe - best offensive talent ever in the NBA?

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 7 years ago '07        #161
Cambury 39 heat pts39
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 FrankAndBeans said:
Kobe averages 4.7 apg dawg...


Seriously? Nobody plays hard in an all-star game...




So what you saying is...

2 scoring titles, 1 mvp 2 finanls mvp, 5 rings is a better argument for offensive GOAT than 10 scoring titles, 5 mvps, 6 finals mvp, 6 rings?
dude said the most Kobe avg in a.ssists is 5 and it is 6...u look dumb now
 07-25-2010, 07:40 PM         #162
-BigC-  OP
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 philly337 said:
Phone died right when I was posting message so not going to retype everything but I hope ur not saying because he shot bad with the wizards it shows anything. He was old, had no speed, no ups, and jumper was flat because of it. U do know there are guys who played in jordans era who played in this one also and game was not affected at all. No hand checking, defensive 3 second, lazy defense...only thing today is zone defense which majority of teams don't run and there were zones being ran in jordans era also that wasn't being called

Now I'm letting my phone charge so that's why I won't be answering
I'm basing it off of the time where teams actually started playing defense until the last year of the second three-peat. His fg% was never above 50% when teams actually started playing defense. And against teams that put up similar PPG numbers as teams that Kobe faces today, they have similar stats. Bring up players who say this or that, I could care less what their opinion of the game is. Math does not lie...
 7 years ago '10        #163
beast mode 25 heat pts25
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 abstractq said:
in fact over the last 30 years the only players to shoot over 12 fts a game was

1) shaq during the hack a shaq era

2) michael jordan in 86. . .son shot almost a THOUSAND fts in an 82 game season


you feel like shutting the f**k up now about the "defensive" 80s?


i didn't mean literally anybody averaged 12-13 on a whole season but more players average over 10. there are stretches (month worth of games) were certain player can average 12-13 free throws. and why wouldn't jordan get free throws he attacked the basket like no other, mj is the most aggressive player ever, the fact is players shot a bunch of ft's who are jump shooters primarily or guys that just go out of control and get calls like crazy,(as much as i love wade he made his living off the most ticky tack calls) the best defenses we've seen lately (pistons with big ben,celtics of 09) mirror the team defenses of the 80's all the time you hear people compairing them to the pistons of old,the knicks D of the early 90's ect ect
 07-25-2010, 07:52 PM         #164
-BigC-  OP
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 beast mode said:
see how the stans wanna point to "facts" yet the facts show across the board mj murders kobe then they wanna complain....we aren't talkin bout the 60's s**t mj was dominating the late 90's (98) lakers started winning in 2000 thats 2 years,i forgot the landscape of defense just totally changed in 2 years

also it was uncommon for a lot of high school or 1-2 year players to come out of college so in the 80's the players were better,the nba now is mostly athletes with not much actual skill so thats another reason scoring is down,one man teams,18 year old players that are 2-4 year projects
Actually the difference isn't in the 2 years from the last three peat to the start of the Lakers dynasty. The difference is the accumlation of numbers over MJ's career that inflate his numbers. If you look at the last quarter or so of MJ's career his fg% is down quiet a bit. I do believe regardless of the situation MJ would probably score at a better fg% in relation to Kobe. But I believe that isn't due to being better then Kobe but because of his range kept him closer to the basket and forced him to take attempts that could be scored at a higher rate. This isn't a knock on MJ if anything its something Kobe should try to learn from. But the difference between MJ and Kobe's stats are misleading due to the inflation of MJ's stats.

I broke this down before but I will just do it one more time without as many specifics. MJ played the Heat in 96-97 where the Heat allowed 89 PPG, about the exact same number as the Celtics did in 08 when Kobe faced them in the playoffs. During that series vs a team with a similar PPG allowed MJ shot under his average and had 2 games with sub .300 shooting. The bulls won the series 4-1 and obviously won one of the games where MJ shot .267 from the field. I believe if you averaged the numbers MJ would still have the edge, but I believe this shows that his numbers vs similar level defensive teams are a lot closer then comparing career stats of him and Kobe.
 7 years ago '04        #165
abstractq 5 heat pts
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 beast mode said:
i didn't mean literally anybody averaged 12-13 on a whole season but more players average over 10. there are stretches (month worth of games) were certain player can average 12-13 free throws. and why wouldn't jordan get free throws he attacked the basket like no other, mj is the most aggressive player ever, the fact is players shot a bunch of ft's who are jump shooters primarily or guys that just go out of control and get calls like crazy,(as much as i love wade he made his living off the most ticky tack calls) the best defenses we've seen lately (pistons with big ben,celtics of 09) mirror the team defenses of the 80's all the time you hear people compairing them to the pistons of old,the knicks D of the early 90's ect ect

rofl you coppin so many pleas now


you got any facts to back up your claim that there are more people shooting all these fts now than in the 80s

or you tryna pull facts out ya a.ss again?

bottomline is you tried to play it like defense was so great back then

but

teams scored more
they shot better percentages
MJ got the special ref treatment to the tune of 12 fts per game


where is the evidence to back up your claims ANYWHERE?


i'll wait
 7 years ago '07        #166
Cambury 39 heat pts39
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 -bigc- said:
actually the difference isn't in the 2 years from the last three peat to the start of the lakers dynasty. The difference is the accumlation of numbers over mj's career that inflate his numbers. If you look at the last quarter or so of mj's career his fg% is down quiet a bit. I do believe regardless of the situation mj would probably score at a better fg% in relation to kobe. But i believe that isn't due to being better then kobe but because of his range kept him closer to the basket and forced him to take attempts that could be scored at a higher rate. This isn't a knock on mj if anything its something kobe should try to learn from. But the difference between mj and kobe's stats are misleading due to the inflation of mj's stats.

I broke this down before but i will just do it one more time without as many specifics. Mj played the heat in 96-97 where the heat allowed 89 ppg, about the exact same number as the celtics did in 08 when kobe faced them in the playoffs. During that series vs a team with a similar ppg allowed mj shot under his average and had 2 games with sub .300 shooting. The bulls won the series 4-1 and obviously won one of the games where mj shot .267 from the field. I believe if you averaged the numbers mj would still have the edge, but i believe this shows that his numbers vs similar level defensive teams are a lot closer then comparing career stats of him and kobe.
real talk
 7 years ago '10        #167
beast mode 25 heat pts25
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 abstractq said:
rofl you coppin so many pleas now


you got any facts to back up your claim that there are more people shooting all these fts now than in the 80s

or you tryna pull facts out ya a.ss again?

bottomline is you tried to play it like defense was so great back then

but

teams scored more
they shot better percentages
MJ got the special ref treatment to the tune of 12 fts per game


where is the evidence to back up your claims ANYWHERE?


i'll wait
i actually watch games and ever since 2001 they've mentioned how many more ft players get,is it not common knowledge that the nba is much tighter officiated???? show me a bulls team that won or even a team that won any title in the 80's that shot 21 free throws in the 4th quarter alone of the finals???? (like the lakers this year) teams scored more cause they were better teams, the com was better,it was team ball,not athletes that just jack up shots. why wouldn't mj get free throws he was extremely aggressive. kobe has more double digit ft attempt season then mj.
 7 years ago '04        #168
abstractq 5 heat pts
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MJ aint no more agrresive than wade is

wade gets about 10 fts a game

they scored more cause the teams were better huh?


who was on the 88 clippers or whatver year it was where they won like 15 games that made them such a good team


cause they still dropped like 100ppg and shot 45% from the floor


im sorry dude. . .but the 80s was much faster paced, man defense and offensively minded

when the knicks came through like around 93,94,95 the league started slowing down, and then when the heat was there and had riley coaching them it was such a slower league. If you watched the games like you claim youd know this


the 80s was ripe for higher scoring averages. . .the 90s and early 00s was predominantly defense. . .now its more of a mix but nothing like the 80s though
 7 years ago '10        #169
FrankAndBeans 27 heat pts27
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You people supporting Kobe in this discussion are missing a huge point:

Scoring titles should remove the differences amongst the defenses in differing era because it shows how dominant you were at scoring in comparison to your PEERS. You can believe all you want that Jordan's era of defense was weaker than Kobe's era...but the FACT REMAINS that Jordan's 10 scoring titles compared to Kobe's 2 proves that Jordan rose further above his given competition than Kobe could above his.

How can Kobe be considered the greatest offensive talent of all time when his offensive statistics aren't even the most impressive of his own era...
 7 years ago '04        #170
abstractq 5 heat pts
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 FrankAndBeans said:
You people supporting Kobe in this discussion are missing a huge point:

Scoring titles should remove the differences amongst the defenses in differing era because it shows how dominant you were at scoring in comparison to your PEERS. You can believe all you want that Jordan's era of defense was weaker than Kobe's era...but the FACT REMAINS that Jordan's 10 scoring titles compared to Kobe's 2 proves that Jordan rose further above his given competition than Kobe could above his.

How can Kobe be considered the greatest offensive talent of all time when his offensive statistics aren't even the most impressive of his own era...

this was addressed earlier


kobe doesnt have scoring titles because his peers were people like tmac, ai, and bron who were their teams ONLY option while kobes sharing the rock and scoring load with other players

so kobe loses out to them. . .but when kobe had his team full of s**tty players that couldnt score for s**t, he damn sure dropped 35 a game tho
 7 years ago '10        #171
beast mode 25 heat pts25
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 -BigC- said:
Actually the difference isn't in the 2 years from the last three peat to the start of the Lakers dynasty. The difference is the accumlation of numbers over MJ's career that inflate his numbers. If you look at the last quarter or so of MJ's career his fg% is down quiet a bit. I do believe regardless of the situation MJ would probably score at a better fg% in relation to Kobe. But I believe that isn't due to being better then Kobe but because of his range kept him closer to the basket and forced him to take attempts that could be scored at a higher rate. This isn't a knock on MJ if anything its something Kobe should try to learn from. But the difference between MJ and Kobe's stats are misleading due to the inflation of MJ's stats.

I broke this down before but I will just do it one more time without as many specifics. MJ played the Heat in 96-97 where the Heat allowed 89 PPG, about the exact same number as the Celtics did in 08 when Kobe faced them in the playoffs. During that series vs a team with a similar PPG allowed MJ shot under his average and had 2 games with sub .300 shooting. The bulls won the series 4-1 and obviously won one of the games where MJ shot .267 from the field. I believe if you averaged the numbers MJ would still have the edge, but I believe this shows that his numbers vs similar level defensive teams are a lot closer then comparing career stats of him and Kobe.
the last quarter of mj career (not the wiz days) mj still shot
.495
.486
.465
all of which are still better then any stretch kobe has had

s**t his old a.ss shot .445 in 03 which is actually pretty good considering his age,lack of shape
kobe and mj have both had tough games against tough teams but that doesn't diminish the abuse mj put on all teams weak or good. lets not act like every team kobe plays against has good D there's a bunch of garbage a.ss teams right now ESPECIALLY on defense
 7 years ago '04        #172
abstractq 5 heat pts
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 beast mode said:
the last quarter of mj career (not the wiz days) mj still shot
.495
.486
.465
all of which are still better then any stretch kobe has had

s**t his old a.ss shot .445 in 03 which is actually pretty good considering his age,lack of shape
kobe and mj have both had tough games against tough teams but that doesn't diminish the abuse mj put on all teams weak or good. lets not act like every team kobe plays against has good D there's a bunch of garbage a.ss teams right now ESPECIALLY on defense

again, because kobe shoots more threes against better defense


seriously

if you shoot 50% thats like going 10-20

if you shoot 45% thats 9 out of 20


if 3-4 more shots every game are threes, thats where the one miss comes from. . .
 7 years ago '10        #173
beast mode 25 heat pts25
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 abstractq said:
MJ aint no more agrresive than wade is

wade gets about 10 fts a game

they scored more cause the teams were better huh?


who was on the 88 clippers or whatver year it was where they won like 15 games that made them such a good team


cause they still dropped like 100ppg and shot 45% from the floor


im sorry dude. . .but the 80s was much faster paced, man defense and offensively minded

when the knicks came through like around 93,94,95 the league started slowing down, and then when the heat was there and had riley coaching them it was such a slower league. If you watched the games like you claim youd know this


the 80s was ripe for higher scoring averages. . .the 90s and early 00s was predominantly defense. . .now its more of a mix but nothing like the 80s though


that's no f**king different then golden state only winning 26 games and averaging 112ppg on 47% this year....or the knicks winning 29 games but averaging 102ppg on 45% shooting it's a fact that after 94 or 95 when the influx of high school players and 1-2 year college players came in the nba (flood gates opened after kg even though he wasn't the first) that scoring went down,coincidence i think not
 07-25-2010, 08:39 PM         #174
-BigC-  OP
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 beast mode said:
that's no f**king different then golden state only winning 26 games and averaging 112ppg on 47% this year....or the knicks winning 29 games but averaging 102ppg on 45% shooting it's a fact that after 94 or 95 when the influx of high school players and 1-2 year college players came in the nba (flood gates opened after kg even though he wasn't the first) that scoring went down,coincidence i think not
Last year 12 teams averaged less then 100 PPG. In 1990 1 team averaged less then 100...
 7 years ago '04        #175
abstractq 5 heat pts
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 beast mode said:
that's no f**king different then golden state only winning 26 games and averaging 112ppg on 47% this year....or the knicks winning 29 games but averaging 102ppg on 45% shooting it's a fact that after 94 or 95 when the influx of high school players and 1-2 year college players came in the nba (flood gates opened after kg even though he wasn't the first) that scoring went down,coincidence i think not

i swear you make some of the dumbest statements I ever read

Its not the same as GS at ALL numbnuts

GS is one of the HIGHEST scoring teams in the league every year

aka they play all offense and not much else and they got a ton of scorers on their squads.

the clippers was the WORST team in the nba

and the LOWEST SCORING TEAM IN THE LEAGUE

they werent scoring alot because they were just a good team like you seem to think. They didnt have a ton of scorers, they werent playing great team ball or whatever bulls**t you wanna throw out there

they scored alot because EVERYBODY scored alot moron
 7 years ago '10        #176
beast mode 25 heat pts25
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 abstractq said:
again, because kobe shoots more threes against better defense


seriously

if you shoot 50% thats like going 10-20

if you shoot 45% thats 9 out of 20


if 3-4 more shots every game are threes, thats where the one miss comes from. . .

there you go pulling stats outta your a.ss now...3-4 more shots are 3's??? no no no...kobe only averages 2 more 3's then mj (nice try trynna double that) and you're a.ssuming that if didn't shot 3's he would be convert those shots into 2 pointers at 100% rate
 7 years ago '08        #177
arthurmack27 8 heat pts
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wilt chamberlin is BY FAR the greatest offensive talent ever. i dont care what era youre in, 100 points in a game in the nba is one of the few sports records that will probably never be broken.
 07-25-2010, 08:46 PM         #178
-BigC-  OP
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 arthurmack27 said:
wilt chamberlin is BY FAR the greatest offensive talent ever. i dont care what era youre in, 100 points in a game in the nba is one of the few sports records that will probably never be broken.
Give me that height/weight/athletic difference and I will do Wilt numbers . Kareem>Wilt
 7 years ago '10        #179
beast mode 25 heat pts25
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 abstractq said:
i swear you make some of the dumbest statements I ever read

Its not the same as GS at ALL numbnuts

GS is one of the HIGHEST scoring teams in the league every year

aka they play all offense and not much else and they got a ton of scorers on their squads.

the clippers was the WORST team in the nba

and the LOWEST SCORING TEAM IN THE LEAGUE

they werent scoring alot because they were just a good team like you seem to think. They didnt have a ton of scorers, they werent playing great team ball or whatever bulls**t you wanna throw out there

they scored alot because EVERYBODY scored alot moron

you're just proving my point no they didn't have 1 dude scoring 30 or anything like that,they can still score 100 cause they played TEAM ball,if they had 1 guy trynna score all there points they prolly wouldn't average 100.didn't one of the worst team in 08-09 grizz average 100ppg on 45%???


Last edited by beast mode; 07-25-2010 at 08:57 PM..
 7 years ago '04        #180
abstractq 5 heat pts
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 beast mode said:
there you go pulling stats outta your a.ss now...3-4 more shots are 3's??? no no no...kobe only averages 2 more 3's then mj (nice try trynna double that) and you're a.ssuming that if didn't shot 3's he would be convert those shots into 2 pointers at 100% rate

this is exactly why u boxden n*ggas are so lame


in your average kobe bryant season, in his prime (aka not including the years where hes riding the bench for half the time because hes like 18)


youre going to find kobe shooting around 5 threes a game. Im sorry these are just facts. Some years a little more, some years a little less, but thats kobes game

in your average MJ season (aka not the seasons he was with the wiz, and not them seasons where the 3 point line was like a foul shot), jordans putting up 1.5 3's a game. Again, these are just facts


so if kobe shoots 3.5 more 3s than mj, and is a 33% 3pt shooter, thats gonna give him 1 extra miss than if he was taking those shots as 2 pointers


like i swear to God, all you n*ggas know how to do is pull up some nba.com raw number. No insight at all to you n*ggas


at all. . .
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