USA eliminated from World Cup | lose to Ghana 2-1 (Match Stats in first post)

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 7 years ago '07        #721
JamcnPrettyboy 96 heat pts96
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the hype over the U.S. team was a marketing technique by the media to get people interested in soccer through patriotism. MLS probably even had something to do with it seeing as they're adding more teams.

the U.S. team is really not that great as they want you to believe. all these sports analysts were saying how great of a chance the U.S. had in the elimination rounds and they could "take ghana" without even backing up their arguments. It was just to get americans riled up.


Major League Soccer is a dud. Getting david Beckham on the LA Galaxy really didn't do much. it made a lil noise for a minute then everyone stopped caring. I bet now they're gonna get Obama to go to D.C. united games and snap a whole bunch of pictures of him and get him to talk about it because they know brainless people follow everything he says and does.
 06-27-2010, 10:12 AM         #722
Old Man Quillis 
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Our team has a father son duo. You will never win anything like that. Those same type of politics keep real athletes from playing the game as children. No one's parents are gonna waste money to watch a coach make the team work through their kids..... Speaking from personal experience.

Also.... These "fans" won't be watching the rest of the World Cup.. They are just on the band wagon.

Also at our schools, its a football field... NOT A Futbol field. There is no love for the sport here... Kids in poor countries will play in the street with an orange.
 06-27-2010, 10:39 AM         #723
Old Man Quillis 
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And look at how England is getting smashed by Germany. This is the same team the US only scored against because of just a sloppy play by the Goalie.... America... WE ARE NOT READY FOR SOCCER!!!!
 7 years ago '08        #724
stlcardinals19 32 heat pts32
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 CalcuoCuchicheo said:
You can only improve so much, before you level off.

I mean, if we're talking about exponential improvement, then my view would still be correct, because while the US are improving, Brazil & the other powers will be improving too, meaning the US will never catch them, no?

I think the US's "improvement" is overrated tbh. The US national team used to boast good players like Friedel & Reyna, along with some decent players who got to play abroad like Keller & McBride. The rest were doing well to be considered mediocre.
Now the US national team boasts some good players like Howard & Donovan, who are inferior to the aforementioned "good players", along with some decent players who play abroad like Bradley & Dempsey. The rest are mediocre.

See, the improvement hasn't been in the mediocre contingent becoming good, but the crap contingent becoming mediocre. And that is completely logical - because it's a lot easier to go from hopeless to mediocre, than it is to go from mediocre to good.

And as for good to great? That's even further off. Maybe one day you'll have a great player. Maybe one day you'll have a handful of good players. But you'll never have a number of great players readily available, supported by a squad otherwise comprised of good players.
I hear you, but you don't think it's possible for the US to make that jump. This may be a bad example, but Spain has been able to make that jump from decent to world power in Basketball. Is it harder to develop into a good soccer nation then say a good basketball nation like Spain?
 06-27-2010, 11:02 AM         #725
Zo1987 
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 CalcuoCuchicheo said:
And you are...? Nobody?

At least my country provided me with a sterling education.



FIFA is as money-hungry as the next organisation & football is increasingly money-orientated. But American viewership, or that of any single nationality, does not make or break that organisation or this sport. The arrogance of kids acting like American elimination or disinterest is anything more than a ripple in an ocean outstrips the arrogance in anything I could come up with because its foundation is comprised entirely of misinformation.

I don't know how much money goes into the NFL btw but, a.ssuming it's remotely representative of the spending power of a sizeable percentage of 300 million hyper-consumers, it's very possible that even less than half of it would obliterate the kind of money circulating in the second tier European leagues like the Dutch Eredivisie, or the Portuguese Liga. However, there is truth to the saying that money does not buy respect & with no respected domestic competition or respected continental competition to offer, it would be very difficult for the MLS to attract much top talent.

The sugar daddies that buy European clubs want to raise their portfolio; the clubs want to succeed in respected competitions.

Buying an American club would not raise anyone's portfolio much because no-one really cares; & the clubs would be attempting to succeed in competitions that are not respected. Have you not noticed that the sugar daddies & their management largely measure success by the club's performance in European competition i.e. the Champion's League?
And players, similarly, seek to play in the premier club competition in the world.

Money would not make the Brazilian Serie A a hotbed of talent, nor the Argentine Primera Division - both of which are more respected than the MLS & at least can offer the Copa Libertadores as incentive - so why would the MLS succeed based on money? The only thing the MLS would have to offer over other countries is larger media opportunities for the players but this would be limited to a select few "stars", hence why only a handful of real foreign talent will ever be participating in the MLS at the one time.

"More good Americans would stay home" - the American players must leave for your national team to improve. What you need is better players, & more of them. You should aspire to have your best players playing at the highest level of club competition (i.e. Spanish La Liga, English Premiership, German Bundesliga, French Ligue 1, Italian Serie A, Champion's League/UEFA Cup etc) but have the talent pool to fill the MLS with good players too. Look at a country like Portugal, their best players play abroad but their talent pool is deep enough that they still have talent in their domestic league - some of it is imported, but much of it is comprised of the Portuguese stars of tomorrow & the veteran Portuguese stars of yesteryear.
See, the key is improving talent, not simply adding a few zeroes to funding.

And no, FIFA was actually a sporting institution first & foremost. And although the sport, with FIFA at its head, became more financially driven, in a way the organisation has such a huge cash flow that it is almost beyond succumbing to simple economics. The same way you couldn't bribe Bill Gates to sell out Microsoft, you won't be able to bribe FIFA into selling out football - but both will happily allow you to invest in their "product" & gladly reap the benefits.
How about that England vs Germany game
 7 years ago '05        #726
CalcuoCuchicheo 
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 stlcardinals19 said:
I hear you, but you don't think it's possible for the US to make that jump. This may be a bad example, but Spain has been able to make that jump from decent to world power in Basketball. Is it harder to develop into a good soccer nation then say a good basketball nation like Spain?
I couldn't really comment on that because my knowledge of basketball is very limited.

But if you consider that for 80 years certain countries - Brazil, Argentina, Germany, Italy - have consistently produced great players & performed well, while others - Holland, France, England, Spain - have often had a few great players but mostly just good players & have struggled to make those last hurdles, it says something.

Take Holland, for instance. They are ridiculously far ahead of the US in terms of footballing pedigree - & yet even their best team, which was filled with great players, could not make the final hurdle & win the World Cup. And that was 36 years ago. They have failed to reach those heights again, because it's really tough to do so.

I think the US would struggle to produce a truly great player, let alone a great team, let alone become a power in world football - there are so many milestones the US has to reach before it would even be considered possible in my mind.
 7 years ago '05        #727
CalcuoCuchicheo 
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 Zo1987 said:
How about that England vs Germany game
It was great! :dancingcool:
 7 years ago '08        #728
stlcardinals19 32 heat pts32
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 CalcuoCuchicheo said:
I couldn't really comment on that because my knowledge of basketball is very limited.

But if you consider that for 80 years certain countries - Brazil, Argentina, Germany, Italy - have consistently produced great players & performed well, while others - Holland, France, England, Spain - have often had a few great players but mostly just good players & have struggled to make those last hurdles, it says something.

Take Holland, for instance. They are ridiculously far ahead of the US in terms of footballing pedigree - & yet even their best team, which was filled with great players, could not make the final hurdle & win the World Cup. And that was 36 years ago. They have failed to reach those heights again, because it's really tough to do so.

I think the US would struggle to produce a truly great player, let alone a great team, let alone become a power in world football - there are so many milestones the US has to reach before it would even be considered possible in my mind.
Gotcha.
 7 years ago '06        #729
Xaiv 149 heat pts149
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 CalcuoCuchicheo said:
You can only improve so much, before you level off.

I mean, if we're talking about exponential improvement, then my view would still be correct, because while the US are improving, Brazil & the other powers will be improving too, meaning the US will never catch them, no?

I think the US's "improvement" is overrated tbh. The US national team used to boast good players like Friedel & Reyna, along with some decent players who got to play abroad like Keller & McBride. The rest were doing well to be considered mediocre.
Now the US national team boasts some good players like Howard & Donovan, who are inferior to the aforementioned "good players", along with some decent players who play abroad like Bradley & Dempsey. The rest are mediocre.

See, the improvement hasn't been in the mediocre contingent becoming good, but the crap contingent becoming mediocre. And that is completely logical - because it's a lot easier to go from hopeless to mediocre, than it is to go from mediocre to good.

And as for good to great? That's even further off. Maybe one day you'll have a great player. Maybe one day you'll have a handful of good players. But you'll never have a number of great players readily available, supported by a squad otherwise comprised of good players.

Agreed the USA fans overrate Tim Howard to the highest degree he's good but I'm with you Frideal is/was better. Disagree about Claudio Reyna being that much better than Landon, Reyna has the better European Pedigree hands down. However for the national team Landon Donovan is best American field player ever. Reyna for whatever reason maybe because he played with mediocre players never replicated his club form with the national team.

Finally I'm just sick and tired of hearing from the casual viewers about how we dont have our best athletes blah, blah. Again futbol is about skill and IQ, more so than Athleticism


Last edited by Xaiv; 06-27-2010 at 11:22 AM..
 7 years ago '05        #730
Universal~Mind 59 heat pts59
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 Xaiv said:
Agreed the USA fans overrate Tim Howard to the highest degree he's good but I'm with you Frideal is/was better. Disagree about Claudio Reyna being that much better than Landon, Reyna has the better European Pedigree hands down. However for the national team Landon Donovan is best American field player ever. Reyna for whatever reason maybe because he played with mediocre players never replicated his club form with the national team.

Finally I'm just sick and tired of hearing from the casual viewers about how we dont have our best athletes blah, blah. Again futbol is about skill and IQ, more so than Athleticism
 7 years ago '06        #731
Xaiv 149 heat pts149
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 Universal~Mind said:
It's not?????

Also the US has guys who are fast and can jump high, but have horrible technique and don't know what to do with the ball once it's at their feet. Give me skill and technique over athletes any day of the week.


Last edited by Xaiv; 06-27-2010 at 11:43 AM..
 7 years ago '05        #732
Universal~Mind 59 heat pts59
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 Xaiv said:
It's not?????
Fam, having skill and being smart on the field or, having the ability to know where your players are going to be and where to put the ball are key components but Athleticism plays just as big a role. Futbol is probably one of the most athleticism requiring sports. I just don't need people who already comment on the sport with lack of knowledge about it to be even further misguided.
 7 years ago '06        #733
Xaiv 149 heat pts149
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 Universal~Mind said:
Fam, having skill and being smart on the field or, having the ability to know where your players are going to be and where to put the ball are key components but Athleticism plays just as big a role. Futbol is probably one of the most athleticism requiring sports. I just don't need people who already comment on the sport with lack of knowledge about it to be even further misguided.
Oh no don't get me wrong I know futbol requires a lot of athleticism I'm just jaded with the fact that fairweather US fans think if we put a guy like Lebron out there he's automatically going to be a star. Even if he did play futbol I would have no faith in USA Soccer developing him we would not know what to do with the Lebrons or Kobes of the world. I just think we as a nation are too obessed with guys who can run fast and jump high we got to teach them proper skills as well which I just dont think the US does jmo
 7 years ago '06        #734
yumflip 4 heat pts
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@ Calcuo....

All your points are valid, but you down play the power of money. The Washington Redskins gross $345 US in revenues. And they're mediocre @ best now. Think Liverpool for a point of reference. Great history, poor showing recently. Just half of that is around $175 give or take. If the MLS had just half it's teams with that financial cache, the MLS would attract more quality from outside of the US. Developing the domestic leagues allow homegrown players to grow here & improve themselves & improve the level of play of the league as a whole. To me that's the most vital part of growing the game here. A better domestic league would attract more veterans who want a good paycheck & young footballers who are going abroad for the first time. Given the choice of second tier football in a remote European city or second tier football in say Chicago, the most I think it would be is 50/50 @ worst. Understanding the importance of history & cup competitions, the influx of money would bolster the importance of created competitions. History comes with time. As the number of great players/teams grows, so would the profile/relevance of the league. I see a situation where MLS could rival Eredivisie in terms of being afeeder league for the rest of the world. Again, money doesn't mean it will definately happen, but it would push the agenda faster.
 7 years ago '06        #735
yumflip 4 heat pts
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Plus the NY Cosmos proved the US could attract world talent. Pele, Carlos Alberto, & Beckenbauer played for them & still speak highly of the expierence. They are widely regarded as a precursor to modern teams in how they were constructed. a.ssembling the best world players you can afford.
 7 years ago '05        #736
CalcuoCuchicheo 
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 Xaiv said:
Agreed the USA fans overrate Tim Howard to the highest degree he's good but I'm with you Frideal is/was better. Disagree about Claudio Reyna being that much better than Landon, Reyna has the better European Pedigree hands down. However for the national team Landon Donovan is best American field player ever. Reyna for whatever reason maybe because he played with mediocre players never replicated his club form with the national team.

Finally I'm just sick and tired of hearing from the casual viewers about how we dont have our best athletes blah, blah. Again futbol is about skill and IQ, more so than Athleticism
I think Reyna is a superior footballer to Donovan. Funnily enough, it comes down to something you later mention - Reyna had the better football brain & could act as a pivot around which an entire team could function (this being linked to his position too, of course); Donovan is a better athlete & has become the poster child for US football but will never be the player Reyna was. Indeed, Donovan & US football wouldn't be where he/it is if it wasn't for the success of a guy like Reyna.

 Universal~Mind said:
The very, very best players are more about intelligence than athleticism.

Great athletes don't necessarily become great footballers. Great football brains with decent athelticism can become great footballers.

Football is essentially comprised of two parts; technique & space. Technique is physical, of course, but not necessarily athletic. And space, the creation, erosion & understanding of it, is mental.


Last edited by CalcuoCuchicheo; 06-27-2010 at 01:25 PM..
 7 years ago '05        #737
CalcuoCuchicheo 
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 yumflip said:
@ Calcuo....

All your points are valid, but you down play the power of money. The Washington Redskins gross $345 US in revenues. And they're mediocre @ best now. Think Liverpool for a point of reference. Great history, poor showing recently. Just half of that is around $175 give or take. If the MLS had just half it's teams with that financial cache, the MLS would attract more quality from outside of the US. Developing the domestic leagues allow homegrown players to grow here & improve themselves & improve the level of play of the league as a whole. To me that's the most vital part of growing the game here. A better domestic league would attract more veterans who want a good paycheck & young footballers who are going abroad for the first time. Given the choice of second tier football in a remote European city or second tier football in say Chicago, the most I think it would be is 50/50 @ worst. Understanding the importance of history & cup competitions, the influx of money would bolster the importance of created competitions. History comes with time. As the number of great players/teams grows, so would the profile/relevance of the league. I see a situation where MLS could rival Eredivisie in terms of being afeeder league for the rest of the world. Again, money doesn't mean it will definately happen, but it would push the agenda faster.
Are you talking 345 million dollars per year?

With 175 million dollars per year, the MLS could attract some good players - but not the best. The same way Manchester City can attract good players, but not the best. The great players already get paid handsomely, so make choices based on competition.

Veteran players want one of two things; either to get the most out of their last couple of years in terms of playing level or finance. The former leads to veterans wishing to play in strong domestic leagues & continental competition i.e. Spain, Germany, England, Italy, France & the Champion's League - not any competition in North America. The latter leads to players looking to play comfortably while picking up healthy wages - i.e. playing in the Middle East or the MLS as it is today.

Make the MLS stronger & it is no longer an easy payday - but nor is it attractive to the players who seek competition because it will never be as strong or prestigious as European competition. Obviously, the MLS could attract veteran US players based on lifestyle, but you'd have to produce the talent first before they can spend their prime years in Europe & then return to the US.

Again, I know next to nothing about basketball but isn't there some second rate European leagues? Why would a great American basketball player ever go to Europe except to wind down his career & for a decent payday? A Spanish player might go back for lifestyle reasons but not an American.

And very few young players want to go to the MLS wilderness. You are basically prolonging your rise to the top.

As for second tier football in a remote European city, I agree that a lot of Westernised players would rather play in Chicago than in Romania if the pay was the same but then you're talking about a fairly crappy standard of player. As long as a team can offer European football - in the Champion's League or the UEFA Cup - they will always be more attractive to a young player than playing in Chicago or something. And that means a team only has to have a chance of qualifying. So that's most top teams in most European leagues, regardless of the crappiness of that domestic league.

History does come with time but no North American competition will ever have the prestige of the Champion's League. And no American league is ever likely to have the prestige of the biggest European leagues or the biggest South American leagues. Maybe review the situation in 50 years.

Football in the US will never rival football in Holland. Dutch coaching is waaay beyond anything available in most countries, let alone the US. So the Eredivisie has a steady stream of homegrown talent; importantly though, this talent is often punctuated with South American talent, as Dutch immigration laws are fairly lax. The US could definitely be a place where South Americans go to ply their trade so they can learn English & become a bit more Westernised before going to Europe - but then, they could do both those things in Holland too, with a better level of coaching, competition & visibility. Plus playing in places like Holland allow the South Americans to sort out work permit issues &, in turn, makes them a more viable option for the big European clubs.

It's actually a really difficult situation. I can see why the progression of US football would cause a real headache for the powers that be over there, because their hands are tied in several different ways.


Last edited by CalcuoCuchicheo; 06-27-2010 at 02:03 PM..
 7 years ago '05        #738
Universal~Mind 59 heat pts59
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 CalcuoCuchicheo said:
I think Reyna is a superior footballer to Donovan. Funnily enough, it comes down to something you later mention - Reyna had the better football brain & could act as a pivot around which an entire team could function (this being linked to his position too, of course); Donovan is a better athlete & has become the poster child for US football but will never be the player Reyna was. Indeed, Donovan & US football wouldn't be where he/it is if it wasn't for the success of a guy like Reyna.



The very, very best players are more about intelligence than athleticism.

Great athletes don't necessarily become great footballers. Great football brains with decent athelticism can become great footballers.

Football is essentially comprised of two parts; technique & space. Technique is physical, of course, but not necessarily athletic. And space, the creation, erosion & understanding of it, is mental.
Ok so what happens when you combine intelligence, skill and athleticism? :rolleyes:

You have one sick mothaf**ka
 7 years ago '05        #739
CalcuoCuchicheo 
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 Universal~Mind said:
Ok so what happens when you combine intelligence, skill and athleticism? :rolleyes:

You have one sick mothaf**ka
...but the least important one of them? Bingo.

Intelligence + athleticism = Usain Bolt with a degree i.e. not a footballer.
Skill + athleticism = stepovers & pace, with no end product i.e. a decent-to-good fooballer.
Intelligence + skill = Riquelme, Veron, Bergkamp etc i.e. great footballers.

Of course, if you add athleticism to it, you've got something very special. But it's clear athleticism is the least important of the three provided there is some degree of fitness on show.
 7 years ago '05        #740
Universal~Mind 59 heat pts59
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 CalcuoCuchicheo said:
...but the least important one of them? Bingo.

Intelligence + athleticism = Usain Bolt with a degree i.e. not a footballer.
Skill + athleticism = stepovers & pace, with no end product i.e. a decent-to-good fooballer.
Intelligence + skill = Riquelme, Veron, Bergkamp etc i.e. great footballers.

Of course, if you add athleticism to it, you've got something very special. But it's clear athleticism is the least important of the three provided there is some degree of fitness on show.
I disagree lol... without some sort of athleticism you just simply can't make the skill or inteligence effective. Period.
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