Iverson Prime > Kobe All-Time

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 05-23-2010, 03:34 PM         #181
A.O.™  OP
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 JOHNSNAKE06 said:
You yourself said not talk about "what ifs", "because this", "he has this". You also defend Shaq by saying no center has gotten done alone. No player has gotten it done alone, and need quality players around them, so how can you discredit Kobe for not winning with the team he played with in between Shaq and Gasol. You rank guys like Ray Allen, who didn't get close to winning as the main option and didn't win until he was teamed up with two other great players, ahead of Kobe. The same can be said about Pierce and KG. Gary Payton and Clyde Drexler didn't win until the end of their careers as role players on good teams. Chris Weber, Vince Carter, and Patrick Ewing didn't win many individual awards, aren't statistically better than Kobe, and didn't win any championships. Iverson, Miller and Barkley, while great, only had one real shot at a title and all came up short. Stockton and Malone, are two HOF players, two of the top 50 players of all-time, together they couldn't get it done. And by the logic that you use to discredit Kobe, Pippen can't be ranked ahead of Kobe either. He had the benefit of playing alongside the GOAT, and was unsuccessful when he played without him. The bottom line is Kobe is a four time champion, and in a position to win more. No "what ifs", no excuses, it is what it is.
Pippen took the Bulls to the Eastern Semis without Mike.. (Kobe didnt get out the first round)
Ray Allen was the team Iverson beat in the CONF Finals the year he went to the Finals (Kobe didnt get out the first round)
Pierce also was in the ECF (kobe didnt get out the first round)
Chris Webber is still in conspiracy talks after Tim Donaghy said that series was fixed.
Patrick lost in the Finals, and was on the bench for the 2nd.
Vince was just flat out amazing in his hayday..
Gary bummed a ring later, but he also had the bad luck of facing Jordan in the Finals.

Again I dont see how top 30 in a sport with over 1000+ athletes is a bad thing. To me Kobe benefitted from being on a lot of great teams, again its not a knock on him, but out of everybody who once had to do it alone, he was suppose to be the superior talent, but he struggled the most. I mean 3-1 lead and you cant close out, the man who once scored 63 points in 3 quarters, and all he had to do was put 1 win together on a team who played no defense.. come on guy!
 8 years ago '08        #182
primetime 60 heat pts60
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A.O needs his own sports talk show...the man knows his s**t :applause:
 05-23-2010, 03:55 PM         #183
-BigC-  OP
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Your comparing a small run that Kobe had with a horrible team to other players who were on teams for years. And Jesus/PP they were in the East, making it into the playoffs required winning like 35 games or some s**t . Jason Kidd made it to the finals from the East

And if you say Vince was just amazing in his hayday why can't Kobe get that same love considering his best season s**ts on anything Vince had?...

The Lakers falling apart vs Phoenix was a result of the team not making shots they had in the previous games. Kobe was making plays the first 4 games that he made in the last 3, the difference was that the other players weren't making the shots they were in the first 4.

And again this is the west where there is actual competition in every round, unlike the East...
 8 years ago '09        #184
WasabiTuna 19 heat pts19
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 A.O.™ said:
Pippen took the Bulls to the Eastern Semis without Mike.. (Kobe didnt get out the first round)phil jackson,the championship core and toni kukoc(who got the last shot over him)
Ray Allen was the team Iverson beat in the CONF Finals the year he went to the Finals (Kobe didnt get out the first round)Sam Cassell,Glenn Robinson...Allstars
Pierce also was in the ECF (kobe didnt get out the first round)Antoine Walker....allstar
Chris Webber is still in conspiracy talks after Tim Donaghy said that series was fixed.Peja and Mike Bibby...allstars
Patrick lost in the Finals, and was on the bench for the 2nd.John Starks...Allstar
Vince was just flat out amazing in his hayday..Tracy Mcgrady...future superstar
Gary bummed a ring later, but he also had the bad luck of facing Jordan in the Finals.Shawn Kemp, Detlef Scrempf...All-stars
come on son,Its a team game . take you're trolling somewhere else every single player you named played with another all star or close to it.
 8 years ago '06        #185
JOHNSNAKE06 
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 WasabiTuna said:
come on son,Its a team game . take you're trolling somewhere else every single player you named played with another all star or close to it.
All those teams were better than the teams Kobe had during that 3 year stretch. He played alongside the likes of Kwame Brown, Brian Cook, Laron Profit, Smush Parker, Devin Green, Slava Medvedenko, Von Wafer, Shammond Williams, Tony Bobbitt, Jumaine Jones, Kareem Rush, Chucky Atkins and Tierre Brown. During that 3 year stretch not 1 of his teammates had an all-star season. Those consisted of a bunch of undrafted players, journeymen, aging players and a few young, undeveloped players. Most of them had trouble finding a roster spot before joining the Lakers, and couldn't find one after leaving. The few that did find a spot were buried on the bench. With the exception of Caron Butler none have gone on to make an all-star team. The only high quality players on those teams were Odom, Butler, and Bynum. Butler only played 1 season, in which Rudy T quit half way through the season, Kobe missed 16 games, and Odom missed 18 games. Bynum was a rookie in the second season of that stretch, and didn't play much. It was only a three year span, and he didn't have much to work with, they were fortunate to even make the playoffs with the roster they put together.
 8 years ago '09        #186
six6nine9wpk 18 heat pts18
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 JOHNSNAKE06 said:
You yourself said not talk about "what ifs", "because this", "he has this". You also defend Shaq by saying no center has gotten done alone. No player has gotten it done alone, and need quality players around them, so how can you discredit Kobe for not winning with the team he played with in between Shaq and Gasol. You rank guys like Ray Allen, who didn't get close to winning as the main option and didn't win until he was teamed up with two other great players, ahead of Kobe. The same can be said about Pierce and KG. Gary Payton and Clyde Drexler didn't win until the end of their careers as role players on good teams. Chris Weber, Vince Carter, and Patrick Ewing didn't win many individual awards, aren't statistically better than Kobe, and didn't win any championships. Iverson, Miller and Barkley, while great, only had one real shot at a title and all came up short. Stockton and Malone, are two HOF players, two of the top 50 players of all-time, together they couldn't get it done. And by the logic that you use to discredit Kobe, Pippen can't be ranked ahead of Kobe either. He had the benefit of playing alongside the GOAT, and was unsuccessful when he played without him. The bottom line is Kobe is a four time champion, and in a position to win more. No "what ifs", no excuses, it is what it is.
Ether..... You are a hater plain and simple A.O. Iverson ran stackhouse away and larry hughes. Big name players did not want to play with him because he hogged the ball.
 8 years ago '07        #187
kakish 9 heat pts
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 StateProperty88 said:
come on homie you just arguing for the sake of arguing now. when he went to denver they got knocked out the first round two years in a row. they trade him to detroit and getting billups and go to the conference finals. im sure you'll find an excuse for that but it is what it is. im not knocking iverson im a sixers fan and he is my favorite player ever, but what im saying is something that every sixers fan knows because we watched the guy and the team for 11 years here and saw how he operated.
you say they knocked out the in the 1st round twice but remember they lost to the Spurs in 07 and they played them better then most teams did in the play-offs, that was the year they won the ship and then they lost to the Lakers in 08 who made the finals.

This year Denver just got knocked out the 1st round by the Jazz and we all know what happened to them. Last year they lost to the Lakers in the WCF but also had a better team with Jones who is a great perimiter defender, Nene who is much better then Camby, healthy k-mart, and a real PG in Billups. When Ivo was there they had klieza, carter and najera getting major minutes. None of them deserve to be getting that kind of playing time in this league.

I don't really know if Billups made them as much better as everyone else said.

A.O is an idiot tho...he's making his side of the argument look terrible because of his bias. It's a shame.
 8 years ago '05        #188
StateProperty88 34 heat pts34
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 kakish said:
you say they knocked out the in the 1st round twice but remember they lost to the Spurs in 07 and they played them better then most teams did in the play-offs, that was the year they won the ship and then they lost to the Lakers in 08 who made the finals.

This year Denver just got knocked out the 1st round by the Jazz and we all know what happened to them. Last year they lost to the Lakers in the WCF but also had a better team with Jones who is a great perimiter defender, Nene who is much better then Camby, healthy k-mart, and a real PG in Billups. When Ivo was there they had klieza, carter and najera getting major minutes. None of them deserve to be getting that kind of playing time in this league.

I don't really know if Billups made them as much better as everyone else said.

A.O is an idiot tho...he's making his side of the argument look terrible because of his bias. It's a shame.
but what you said is neither here nor there, the fact still remains that iverson has played on more talented teams then the team that went to the finals but that is the team that he has gone further with, the nuggets was just an example of a team that had more talent then the 01 team. and it just proves the point that the 01 team wasnt a "team of bums" it was a team that knew their roles and was very good at doing it. the hallmark of that team was iverson scoring or jacking it up 30-40 times, it was the defense that they played night in night out. thats what made that team good and the same people that you guys are calling bums are the most pivotal parts to what made that team successful (i.e. tyrone hill, george lynch, e. snow, deke, a. mckie), and defense is something iverson wanted no parts of
 05-23-2010, 06:41 PM         #189
1angrypinoy  OP
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A.I. = No practice = no rings
 8 years ago '05        #190
katalist 229 heat pts229
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 8 years ago '09        #191
faceoffizhere 
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 A.O.™ said:
(I wont even be a f*g and speak on players I never seen play)

Top 10

1- MJ
2- Shaq
3- Tim Duncan
4- Kevin Garnett
5- Magic Johnson
6- Isiah Thomas
7- Karl Malone
8- John Stockton
9- Allen Iverson
10- Hakeem Olajuwon

thats my top 10 in no order except MJ and TD.

10-20

11- Charles Barkley
12- Gary Payton
13- Reggie Miller
14- Ray Allen
15- Paul Pierce
16- Vince Carter (his prime yrs in T.O > Kobe's life)
17- Scottie Pippen
18- Chris Webber
19- Clyde Drexler
20- Patrick Ewing

Now thats 20 without the likes of Carmelo, D-Whistle, Lebron.. thats without the all-time greats in Bill Russell, Wilt, etc..

And if I was adding players from the 60's,70,early 80's that i got to see play, and the players from this decade... Kobe would be top 50.

Again when I talk about how good a player is, SINCE I ACTUALLY WATCH BASKETBALL I FACTOR EVERYTHING IN THERE, THE PLAYERS TEAM MATES, PLAYERS ROLE ON THE TEAM, not just ESPN/Sportscenter high lights, where Ironically they never show a player miss unless he was off all game...


And if you know anything about me PENNY HARDAWAY IS MY FAVORITE PLAYER OF ALL TIME.. And he's not even on the list to show how unbias I am...
 8 years ago '08        #192
Sowhat 1 heat pts
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It's crazy that AI gets so much hate
 8 years ago '06        #193
JOHNSNAKE06 
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 Sowhat said:
It's crazy that AI gets so much hate
No hate here, I have the utmost respect for the man. Iverson is one of my all-time favorite players. I respect players that play with heart and passion, and leave everything on the court, and Iverson always gave everything that he had. At 6' tall, he played with the heart of a giant and was always in k!ll mode. However, he isn't a better player than Kobe.
 05-24-2010, 06:01 PM         #194
A.O.™  OP
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 JOHNSNAKE06 said:
No hate here, I have the utmost respect for the man. Iverson is one of my all-time favorite players. I respect players that play with heart and passion, and leave everything on the court, and Iverson always gave everything that he had. At 6' tall, he played with the heart of a giant and was always in k!ll mode. However, he isn't a better player than Kobe.
And thats your opinion and your entitled to it but doesnt make it fact. Just like my opinion is my opinion doesnt make it fact. Iverson > Kobe is not that far-fetched as you people think.
 8 years ago '06        #195
JOHNSNAKE06 
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 A.O.™ said:
And thats your opinion and your entitled to it but doesnt make it fact. Just like my opinion is my opinion doesnt make it fact. Iverson > Kobe is not that far-fetched as you people think.
You are entitled to your opinion, and I mine. We have opposing views on the subject, and I was just presenting my side of the argument, and while it may not be a fact, I'm pretty sure it is the general consensus. I don't want anyone to think that I am hating on Iverson, or anti-Iverson, just because I think Kobe is better. Iverson is one of my all-time favorites.
 05-24-2010, 06:32 PM         #196
A.O.™  OP
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 JOHNSNAKE06 said:
You are entitled to your opinion, and I mine. We have opposing views on the subject, and I was just presenting my side of the argument, and while it may not be a fact, I'm pretty sure it is the general consensus. I don't want anyone to think that I am hating on Iverson, or anti-Iverson, just because I think Kobe is better. Iverson is one of my all-time favorites.
General consensus doesnt make it fact either..It just makes it the popular opinion.. If you ask somebody that didnt watch basketball in the 90s whose the best player they would say Jordan, If you ask a person whose the best basketball player now, who doesnt watch basketball they will say Kobe/Lebron, if you ask a person who doesnt watch baseball whose their favorite team, they will probably say "I dont follow the sport, but go Yankees", so general consensus doesnt mean much, but who the general public sucks off, because they get mediawashed with it.Reason why so many people entered this thread, and said close to nothing, but "Your an idiot" nothing to counter the original thought...

Because truth is, while rebounding, defense, are all part of basketball and important elements to winning games, the team that wins the game is not the team with the most rebounds, but the team that scores the most points. And Iverson was able to put a whole team on his back and provide the team with all the offense it needed, i dont see how him being undersized and not being able to get rebounds, and block shots, negates him from being one of the best, when the one thing Kobe is praised for, is his ability to score... Dont you see the hypocracy? People brag about how Kobe scored 40 on every team, how he scored 81, how he scored 63 in 3 quarters, or how he averaged 40 for a week, or a month or some s**t.. Nobody talks about him grabbing 20 boards in a game, or having 10 blocks in a game, it all comes down to the points.. Sometimes Kobe scores 38 points on 38 shots, but only want to talk about the 38 points. See the Irony of saying Iverson is just a great scorer, and Kobe's a better player. Iverson drove his team to win, and Kobe did too, whether Kobe did it with 30 pts, 7 rebs and 5 ast, and Iverson did it with 30 pts, 7 ast, and 2 steals.. They accomplished what they had too, to win.


Last edited by A.O.™; 05-24-2010 at 06:35 PM..
 8 years ago '09        #197
That Guy Fly 21 heat pts21
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I cant believe n*ggas are still here arguing this. Anybody with a brain knows who's better.
 05-24-2010, 07:03 PM         #198
AKS MUZIK  OP
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 WilliamET09 said:
anyone who thinks iverson>kobe should get one of these.

[pic - click to view]

oh ish
 8 years ago '06        #199
JOHNSNAKE06 
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 A.O.™ said:
General consensus doesnt make it fact either..It just makes it the popular opinion.. If you ask somebody that didnt watch basketball in the 90s whose the best player they would say Jordan, If you ask a person whose the best basketball player now, who doesnt watch basketball they will say Kobe/Lebron, if you ask a person who doesnt watch baseball whose their favorite team, they will probably say "I dont follow the sport, but go Yankees", so general consensus doesnt mean much, but who the general public sucks off, because they get mediawashed with it.Reason why so many people entered this thread, and said close to nothing, but "Your an idiot" nothing to counter the original thought...

Because truth is, while rebounding, defense, are all part of basketball and important elements to winning games, the team that wins the game is not the team with the most rebounds, but the team that scores the most points. And Iverson was able to put a whole team on his back and provide the team with all the offense it needed, i dont see how him being undersized and not being able to get rebounds, and block shots, negates him from being one of the best, when the one thing Kobe is praised for, is his ability to score... Dont you see the hypocracy? People brag about how Kobe scored 40 on every team, how he scored 81, how he scored 63 in 3 quarters, or how he averaged 40 for a week, or a month or some s**t.. Nobody talks about him grabbing 20 boards in a game, or having 10 blocks in a game, it all comes down to the points.. Sometimes Kobe scores 38 points on 38 shots, but only want to talk about the 38 points. See the Irony of saying Iverson is just a great scorer, and Kobe's a better player. Iverson drove his team to win, and Kobe did too, whether Kobe did it with 30 pts, 7 rebs and 5 ast, and Iverson did it with 30 pts, 7 ast, and 2 steals.. They accomplished what they had too, to win.
I am not saying that consensus makes it fact. And I don't mean consensus among media and fans, I'm talking about people in the sport, and that have been around the sport for decades, that have seen greats come and go, have played alongside and against the best. Both players are great scorers, but Kobe is a better defender, rebounder, post player, shooter, and is fundamentally and physically superior to Iverson. As a basketball player Kobe is vastly superior to Iverson. As a scorer you can argue that Iverson was better, but not as a basketball player. The part about Kobe going for 30 pts, 7 rebs. and 5 asts and Iverson going for 30 pts, 7 asts and 2 steals is true. But Kobe could dominate a game in every aspect that Iverson could, but Iverson couldn't do everything that Kobe can. There are very few things that Kobe can't do on the basketball court, he doesn't have many holes in his game. Iverson on the other hand has more limitations, partly due to his stature.
 8 years ago '06        #200
JOHNSNAKE06 
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 A.O.™ said:
General consensus doesnt make it fact either..It just makes it the popular opinion.. If you ask somebody that didnt watch basketball in the 90s whose the best player they would say Jordan, If you ask a person whose the best basketball player now, who doesnt watch basketball they will say Kobe/Lebron, if you ask a person who doesnt watch baseball whose their favorite team, they will probably say "I dont follow the sport, but go Yankees", so general consensus doesnt mean much, but who the general public sucks off, because they get mediawashed with it.Reason why so many people entered this thread, and said close to nothing, but "Your an idiot" nothing to counter the original thought...

Because truth is, while rebounding, defense, are all part of basketball and important elements to winning games, the team that wins the game is not the team with the most rebounds, but the team that scores the most points. And Iverson was able to put a whole team on his back and provide the team with all the offense it needed, i dont see how him being undersized and not being able to get rebounds, and block shots, negates him from being one of the best, when the one thing Kobe is praised for, is his ability to score... Dont you see the hypocracy? People brag about how Kobe scored 40 on every team, how he scored 81, how he scored 63 in 3 quarters, or how he averaged 40 for a week, or a month or some s**t.. Nobody talks about him grabbing 20 boards in a game, or having 10 blocks in a game, it all comes down to the points.. Sometimes Kobe scores 38 points on 38 shots, but only want to talk about the 38 points. See the Irony of saying Iverson is just a great scorer, and Kobe's a better player. Iverson drove his team to win, and Kobe did too, whether Kobe did it with 30 pts, 7 rebs and 5 ast, and Iverson did it with 30 pts, 7 ast, and 2 steals.. They accomplished what they had too, to win.
A part of scoring more than the other team is predicated on rebounding and defending. More times than not the team that wins the battle on the boards and forces the most turnovers wins the game. But, that isn't my point, my point is that as a basketball player Kobe can do more than score. Iverson was basically a great scorer, and little else.
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