John Hollinger: LeBron James the best NBA player since Michael Jordan

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 8 years ago '09        #61
TERRANCE CRACK 48 heat pts48
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 StateProperty88 said:
what does josh powell have to do with anything i said?
it was a joke fam
 8 years ago '05        #62
StateProperty88 34 heat pts34
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 TERRANCE CRACK said:
it was a joke fam
:jay:well this is awkward , my bad homie took it wrong
 8 years ago '08        #63
Imagin3 3 heat pts
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 akademiks said:
I pick and choose stats that fit my argument? Wow.. You do realize that the two stats are completely different from each other?

I know exactly the way both stats work. Because I think one is useful, doesn't make the other one useful by a.ssociation of having the same guy make both of them up.

Its not the same basic principle because TS% takes into account the value of a free throw, the 3 point shot and a 2 point shot, which are ABSOLUTE and not relative. PER ARBITRARILY a.ssigns the value of a rebound, turnover, block, steal, minutes per game, pace and other things in accordance to how important Hollinger thinks they are.

Big difference.

And honestly I'm tired of your stupidity. Do you get more points from a short/mid/short pass if none of them directly result in a touchdown? Are you trying to make a horrible argument or does it just come naturally?

[pic - click to view]



That pretty much ends the thread.
And regardless of of who has the most PER, stats don't tell the whole story and they never will.


Last edited by Imagin3; 03-31-2010 at 10:45 AM..
 8 years ago '06        #64
philly337 20 heat pts20
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 akademiks said:
I pick and choose stats that fit my argument? Wow.. You do realize that the two stats are completely different from each other?

I know exactly the way both stats work. Because I think one is useful, doesn't make the other one useful by a.ssociation of having the same guy make both of them up.

Its not the same basic principle because TS% takes into account the value of a free throw, the 3 point shot and a 2 point shot, which are ABSOLUTE and not relative. PER ARBITRARILY a.ssigns the value of a rebound, turnover, block, steal, minutes per game, pace and other things in accordance to how important Hollinger thinks they are.

Big difference.

And honestly I'm tired of your stupidity. Do you get more points from a short/mid/short pass if none of them directly result in a touchdown? Are you trying to make a horrible argument or does it just come naturally?
number 1 i'm f**kin with u so quick getitn ur panties wet

second he uses all the shooting percetages in a calculation to come up with an overall shooting percentage.In the same way he takes all of the things in a game in a calculation to come up with an overall rating

both are bulls**t but for real PER > TS%.Just look at the top 5,10,or 20 on both....both have many bulls**t players higher then others but PER is more consistent then TS%

and as for ur last comment..come on don't be so stupid..where did i say anything about scoring.I was saying there is a completion percentage in football that i could make a formula where it would take in to account the distance of each completion/incompletion and call in it "true completion percetage"
 03-31-2010, 10:51 AM         #65
AbsLikeJesus  OP
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The only argument I have with many posters online is that they kind of get caught behind the smoke and mirrors of a championship. LeBron has been the best single season performer for a while now, but it all gets diminished since he hasn't won a championship. Everything else aside, his s**tty team, his s**tty coach, etc, why do you let rings choose how you value a player's worth?

I remember when Shaq left Kobe; he was entering his prime and had a s**tty team, couldn't win, didn't make the playoffs, etc and people were saying that since he couldn't win by himself that he was no different than other players with 0 championships. Then he got a few really good players and won one and everyone has just propelled Kobe into top 10 status. Why did it take Kobe to win without Shaq in some of his worst years to be regarded so highly? This same stupid logic is going to happen to LeBron as well.

The second LeBron wins a championship, I mean, THE VERY SECOND he wins one, he will move up 10 spots on the all time ranking list. HOW??!? The last finals game will start at 7 oclock and at 10:30 he will be a certified top 20 legend. His skill hasn't changed at all, not one aspect of his game has changed during those few hours, but people will wait for that clock to go to 0, see the score and then scream "NOW he is as good as they say he is!!". It's ridiculous. Players like Kobe, LeBron, Wade, etc shouldn't have to win to be respected as much as they deserve. I wonder what the consensus of Wade will be if he wins 4 more championships in his final 4 seasons and averages 10 ppg.

I guess what I'm asking is...Do people really rank Russel ahead of Chamberlain?
 8 years ago '04        #66
A.G 27 heat pts27
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 philly337 said:
number 1 i'm f**kin with u so quick getitn ur panties wet

second he uses all the shooting percetages in a calculation to come up with an overall shooting percentage.In the same way he takes all of the things in a game in a calculation to come up with an overall rating

both are bulls**t but for real PER > TS%.Just look at the top 5,10,or 20 on both....both have many bulls**t players higher then others but PER is more consistent then TS%

and as for ur last comment..come on don't be so stupid..where did i say anything about scoring.I was saying there is a completion percentage in football that i could make a formula where it would take in to account the distance of each completion/incompletion and call in it "true completion percetage"
Except like I told you before, the value of a free throw, a 2 point shot and a 3 point shot are not variable.

Does a steal have a real tangible value? A rebound? Block?

And lol @ consistency. Sorry man, but the best players are not always the most efficient shooters.

Again, that football analogy is just flat out awful.
 8 years ago '04        #67
A.G 27 heat pts27
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 AbsLikeJesus said:
The only argument I have with many posters online is that they kind of get caught behind the smoke and mirrors of a championship. LeBron has been the best single season performer for a while now, but it all gets diminished since he hasn't won a championship. Everything else aside, his s**tty team, his s**tty coach, etc, why do you let rings choose how you value a player's worth?

I remember when Shaq left Kobe; he was entering his prime and had a s**tty team, couldn't win, didn't make the playoffs, etc and people were saying that since he couldn't win by himself that he was no different than other players with 0 championships. Then he got a few really good players and won one and everyone has just propelled Kobe into top 10 status. Why did it take Kobe to win without Shaq in some of his worst years to be regarded so highly? This same stupid logic is going to happen to LeBron as well.

The second LeBron wins a championship, I mean, THE VERY SECOND he wins one, he will move up 10 spots on the all time ranking list. HOW??!? The last finals game will start at 7 oclock and at 10:30 he will be a certified top 20 legend. His skill hasn't changed at all, not one aspect of his game has changed during those few hours, but people will wait for that clock to go to 0, see the score and then scream "NOW he is as good as they say he is!!". It's ridiculous. Players like Kobe, LeBron, Wade, etc shouldn't have to win to be respected as much as they deserve. I wonder what the consensus of Wade will be if he wins 4 more championships in his final 4 seasons and averages 10 ppg.

I guess what I'm asking is...Do people really rank Russel ahead of Chamberlain?

[video - click to view]

 03-31-2010, 10:59 AM         #68
Rynoh  OP
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 Cambury said:
ok cool...will he win the championship....NOPE, so who cares? honestly
You ain't Ms. Cleo, muthaf**ka.
 8 years ago '04        #69
A.G 27 heat pts27
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 WilliamHBonnie said:
You ain't Ms. Cleo, muthaf**ka.
Lebron plays for Cleveland.. He doesn't have to be Miss Cleo to know that they ain't winning a title as long as Javon is alive.
 03-31-2010, 11:06 AM         #70
Rynoh  OP
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 akademiks said:
Lebron plays for Cleveland.. He doesn't have to be Miss Cleo to know that they ain't winning a title as long as Javon is alive.
And you're not Ms. Cleo either. Stop it. Just stop.
 8 years ago '09        #71
Scallinno 231 heat pts231
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I'd rather go off of what I see. If you were old enough to understand the game of basketball when Jordan was playing, then you'd know that nobody is/was better than Mike.

Title's really don't define how great of a player you are. They tell how good your whole team is, and they give you a chance to prove what you can do in the biggest pressure situation, but it is a team sport and a small sample size compared to your whole career.

I've always thought most of these "stat-geeks" don't know what the hell they're talking about. That's like per 48 minutes. If that's not one of the stupidest stats there is, I don't know what is. Anybody that has played sports before knows that all players can't maintain a level of play when they're tired.

I like LeBron, always have, but there's nothing that makes me take him over Mike or Kobe. I feel he'll definitely be top 10 all time.
 03-31-2010, 11:09 AM         #72
AbsLikeJesus  OP
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 akademiks said:
video
Only thing is the players like LeBron, Kobe, Wade etc have always played to win. And like he said, it doesn't matter if you don't win, as long as you play to win. Now who plays to win THE BEST? Isn't that the measure of a player's talents? Because this is where people can come in saying Robert Horry > everyone playing now. Then you can say "No you have to be at least dominant or have good stats" and people will pull out Bill Russell. We all know Horry and Russell aren't greater than MJ, Kobe, or LeBron, so why do we make exceptions? It seems that a player can be significantly worse than someone else, but if they have more rings, then they are automatically better.
 03-31-2010, 11:10 AM         #73
Rynoh  OP
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 Scallinno said:
I'd rather go off of what I see. If you were old enough to understand the game of basketball when Jordan was playing, then you'd know that nobody is/was better than Mike.

Title's really don't define how great of a player you are. They tell how good your whole team is, and they give you a chance to prove what you can do in the biggest pressure situation, but it is a team sport and a small sample size compared to your whole career.

I've always thought most of these "stat-geeks" don't know what the hell they're talking about. That's like per 48 minutes. If that's not one of the stupidest stats there is, I don't know what is. Anybody that has played sports before knows that all players can't maintain a level of play when they're tired.

I like LeBron, always have, but there's nothing that makes me take him over Mike or Kobe. I feel he'll definitely be top 10 all time.
Exactly. Individuals win accomplishments, teams win rings & chips.
 8 years ago '08        #74
Imagin3 3 heat pts
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 AbsLikeJesus said:
The only argument I have with many posters online is that they kind of get caught behind the smoke and mirrors of a championship. LeBron has been the best single season performer for a while now, but it all gets diminished since he hasn't won a championship. Everything else aside, his s**tty team, his s**tty coach, etc, why do you let rings choose how you value a player's worth?

I remember when Shaq left Kobe; he was entering his prime and had a s**tty team, couldn't win, didn't make the playoffs, etc and people were saying that since he couldn't win by himself that he was no different than other players with 0 championships. Then he got a few really good players and won one and everyone has just propelled Kobe into top 10 status. Why did it take Kobe to win without Shaq in some of his worst years to be regarded so highly? This same stupid logic is going to happen to LeBron as well.

The second LeBron wins a championship, I mean, THE VERY SECOND he wins one, he will move up 10 spots on the all time ranking list. HOW??!? The last finals game will start at 7 oclock and at 10:30 he will be a certified top 20 legend. His skill hasn't changed at all, not one aspect of his game has changed during those few hours, but people will wait for that clock to go to 0, see the score and then scream "NOW he is as good as they say he is!!". It's ridiculous. Players like Kobe, LeBron, Wade, etc shouldn't have to win to be respected as much as they deserve. I wonder what the consensus of Wade will be if he wins 4 more championships in his final 4 seasons and averages 10 ppg.

I guess what I'm asking is...Do people really rank Russel ahead of Chamberlain?
The championship isn't the end all be all, but how can you equate regular season greatness with the actual fulfillment of what you suit up those 82 games for? It's for the GOLD ball, the Russell, not the MVP. How can you say a player doesn't have to win to be respected? This is sports. This is competition. This isn't a statistics pageant. The point of it all is to win, Lebron is doing half of what it takes right now. As far as it being ridiculous to wait until players win to give them the crown...I'll let you think about that again because i can't fathom how that's ridiculous in your mind. Tracy McGrady used to dominate the regular season, but strangely, this "didn't have enough help/regular season stats mean alot" argument was never used for him.
 8 years ago '08        #75
Imagin3 3 heat pts
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This n*gga akademiks is spewing truth all over this thread. Props.
 8 years ago '04        #76
dre03 
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 Cambury said:
ok cool...will he win the championship....NOPE, so who cares? honestly
Wow Really??? So u know the future now???

People like you disgust me... U have no idea who will win the championship...
 8 years ago '08        #77
Imagin3 3 heat pts
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 AbsLikeJesus said:
Only thing is the players like LeBron, Kobe, Wade etc have always played to win. And like he said, it doesn't matter if you don't win, as long as you play to win. Now who plays to win THE BEST? Isn't that the measure of a player's talents? Because this is where people can come in saying Robert Horry > everyone playing now. Then you can say "No you have to be at least dominant or have good stats" and people will pull out Bill Russell. We all know Horry and Russell aren't greater than MJ, Kobe, or LeBron, so why do we make exceptions? It seems that a player can be significantly worse than someone else, but if they have more rings, then they are automatically better.
Who do you think is worse than Lebron that is given more respect?
Lebron is respected as a dominant force, just not as a winning one.
You want to say Lebron is better than who?
And I hate that we discredit Russell's dominance for something he had no control over.
He played the best he could, I'd rather keep him out the conversation than compare Lebron to him. The man did what he was supposed to do. That was win.
 8 years ago '10        #78
Hovi Bryant 676 heat pts676
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 Wikipedia said:
Problems With PER

PER largely measures offensive performance. Hollinger freely admits that two of the defensive statistics it incorporates -- blocks and steals -- can produce a distorted picture of a player's value and that PER is not a reliable measure of a player's defensive acumen. For example, Bruce Bowen, widely regarded as one of the best defenders in the NBA (at least through the 2006-07 season), has routinely posted single-digit PERs.

"Bear in mind that this rating is not the final, once-and-for-all answer for a player's accomplishments during the season. This is especially true for players such as Bruce Bowen and Trenton Hassell who are defensive specialists but don't get many blocks or steals."

Neither PER nor per-game statistics take into account such intangible elements as competitive drive, leadership, durability, conditioning, or hustle, largely because there is no real way to quantitatively measure these things, which are often based on opinion.

In addition, some have argued that PER gives undue weight to a player's contribution in limited minutes, or against a team's second unit, and it undervalues players who have enough diversity in their game to play starter's minutes.

Lastly, PER rewards inefficient shooting. To quote Dave Berri, the author of The Wages of Wins:

"Hollinger argues that each two point field goal made is worth about 1.65 points. A three point field goal made is worth 2.65 points. A missed field goal, though, costs a team 0.72 points. Given these values, with a bit of math we can show that a player will break even on his two point field goal attempts if he hits on 30.4% of these shots. On three pointers the break-even point is 21.4%. If a player exceeds these thresholds, and virtually every NBA played does so with respect to two-point shots, the more he shoots the higher his value in PERs. So a player can be an inefficient scorer and simply inflate his value by taking a large number of shots."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Player_Efficiency_Rating

There are a few of hall of fame potential players (Kobe Bryant and Allen Iverson) missing from Holliger's career top 25 players based on his rankings, which is a shock to me. However I do agree with those whom believe LeBron is the best non post season performer in the league since Michael Jordan. Statistically as well as the non statistical evidence backs that up.


Last edited by Hovi Bryant; 03-31-2010 at 11:25 AM..
 8 years ago '04        #79
A.G 27 heat pts27
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 WilliamHBonnie said:
And you're not Ms. Cleo either. Stop it. Just stop.
:dancingcool:

 AbsLikeJesus said:
Only thing is the players like LeBron, Kobe, Wade etc have always played to win. And like he said, it doesn't matter if you don't win, as long as you play to win. Now who plays to win THE BEST? Isn't that the measure of a player's talents? Because this is where people can come in saying Robert Horry > everyone playing now. Then you can say "No you have to be at least dominant or have good stats" and people will pull out Bill Russell. We all know Horry and Russell aren't greater than MJ, Kobe, or LeBron, so why do we make exceptions? It seems that a player can be significantly worse than someone else, but if they have more rings, then they are automatically better.
As much as people want to reward "effort" and all that, a player just won't be recognized as an all-time great without any titles. Whether Lebron wins the MVP award for the next 8 years will be irrelevant if he never wins, because then that'll bring up questions about his leadership and whether he was really playing with the will to win or did he play to pad his stats and cash in his cheques.. Regardless of whether it's deserved criticism or not.

Just look at Karl Malone's career. Dude averaged ridiculous numbers, was a top 3 scorer in NBA history, had great longevity - but where does he rank? Barely top 20? Then you look at Moses Malone, who's regarded as a better player all-time .. And it's almost certainly because he has rings and Karl doesn't.

That Robert Horry excuse is old and tired. There's a difference between a major contributor or main guy on a championship team and a career role player.

And I've never seen Bill Russell play so I can't tread in that direction... It's obvious that players of today's era are much better than players of any era, including the 80s and 90s. George Mikan was a revolutionary player and won 5 titles, all of them as the main guy, but we know he's not on the level of anyone that came after him, even those that are much less accomplished.

Championships maybe shouldn't decide who's the better player, but the fact of the matter is that when you're comparing players at an all-time level, they do.
 8 years ago '07        #80
wtr1906 45 heat pts45
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Oh wow, look........ Another MJ vs Lebron vs Kobe thread!!!!!!!! :wow: SHOCKING
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