There are still some people who think LeBron doesn't have killer instinct

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 03-07-2010, 05:23 PM         #141
AbsLikeJesus  OP
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 JOHNSNAKE06 said:
[/B]

What I'm saying is, we don't know just by looking at the stats, so the stats can't accurately gauge "clutch" play. I am not downplaying Lebron's stats, I agreed with you that he isn't as bad as some people are saying, but the stats that you posted can't prove or disprove anything. In order for a stat to accurately compare an intangible attribute, all things have to be equal in every case. We all know that every possession has a life of it's own. There are too many variables for one general stat to prove your argument. My argument isn't with Lebron's stats, it's with using stats and stats only to try and prove a player's abilities.
See the only problem I have with your post is that you are taking this into account as a "VS." type of stat. This doesn't have to be LeBron vs. Kobe, therefor, it doesn't matter if we don't know which player has the advantage of time (Which player, if any, has more time in that 24 second span than the other) because EITHER WAY, this statistic is impressive. All of LeBron's could be with exactly 24 seconds left where he iso's himself and scores, it's still impressive. How can anyone say otherwise? And this is all I was really trying to get across.

Also, in no way did I want it to seem like I was using this as a means of proving he is clutch. You watch games for that and I watched Cavs games consistently since half way through his second season. I know what he was like when he was younger and I know what he's like now on the court, dude is officially clutch now, that's all
 8 years ago '06        #142
JOHNSNAKE06 
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 AbsLikeJesus said:
See the only problem I have with your post is that you are taking this into account as a "VS." type of stat. This doesn't have to be LeBron vs. Kobe, therefor, it doesn't matter if we don't know which player has the advantage of time (Which player, if any, has more time in that 24 second span than the other) because EITHER WAY, this statistic is impressive. All of LeBron's could be with exactly 24 seconds left where he iso's himself and scores, it's still impressive. How can anyone say otherwise? And this is all I was really trying to get across.

Also, in no way did I want it to seem like I was using this as a means of proving he is clutch. You watch games for that and I watched Cavs games consistently since half way through his second season. I know what he was like when he was younger and I know what he's like now on the court, dude is officially clutch now, that's all
I'm not trying to make it a vs. stat, when you posted the graphic of the stat it had several players names which led the thread in that direction. The stat in itself doesn't mean anything if you don't compare it to another player's stats, in this case Kobe because he is the player believed to be at the top of that category. If you say that player A has X number of game winners, it doesn't mean much, unless you compare it to the stats of other players. If I said John Doe has made 100 consecutive free throws it may or may not seem impressive. But if I said John Doe has made 100 consecutive free throws and the next longest streak is only 15, it gives a different impression. It puts the numbers in perspective, which is why the thread took the turn that it did. It appears that the reason the stats were posted by ESPN was to say Lebron is "clutch" by comparing his numbers to the rest of the league's, Kobe's in particular, because no one doubts Kobe's "clutch".
 03-07-2010, 06:11 PM         #143
Rynoh  OP
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 Prodigy said:
do people even watch games? dumbasses don't see how many times Bron shoots a terrible 3 in a 2 point game with like a minute left... and he RARELY hits them
LMAO you're talking about his ONE game vs. Denver... get more proof to back that up please.
 8 years ago '06        #144
JOHNSNAKE06 
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Also, your initial argument is that Lebron has a k!ller instinct, the entire basis for your initial argument was that he had mad X amount of shots with 24 seconds or less in a 1 possession game. So, if you meant to or not, that was how you chose to prove your point.


Last edited by JOHNSNAKE06; 03-07-2010 at 06:18 PM..
 03-07-2010, 06:18 PM         #145
Rynoh  OP
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every one possession isn't the same, so to try and compare them equally isn't possible. If a team has no timeouts and have to inbound the ball from under their own basket with 1 second on the clock, "clutch" or "killer instinct" isn't the determining factor of the outcome. Luck is. A play with 24 seconds, a timeout, and the ball inbounded at half court gives a player options. Now his ability or the other teams ability to stop him is the determining factor. These two scenarios are completely different, yet the stat sheet only shows made or missed field goal. If the player in the first scenario makes or misses the shot doesn't prove or disprove his "clutch". It is unreasonable to expect him to make that play. The player in the second scenario has a chance to prove his ability in clutch situations. Variables like time, timeouts, fouls to give, the area of the court the player has the ball, the other teams defensive philosophy all play a part in team strategy on both sides of the ball, which affects the outcome. Just showing a stat of missed and made shots can't prove a players intangible attributes. Stats can't tell the entire story.
You're looking too much into this and over analyzing. If you want to come up with your own stats other than ESPN's be my guest. I'm open to some new clutch stats.

It can be kept as simple as this, really, and it tells the story.

 03-07-2010, 06:21 PM         #146
IAmazeMyself  OP
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 NnAiTnAjSa317 said:
I could give two s**ts about Lebron James. I don't care if he ever wins one or doesn't win one. The point is, nobody that isn't already d*ckriding his "stats" aren't going to change their opinions on him. This guy is hyped up beyond all belief. Players with this kind of hype and so called k!ller instinct are supposed to win championships. This hasn't happened yet.

[pic - click to view]

 8 years ago '06        #147
JOHNSNAKE06 
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 WilliamHBonnie said:
You're looking too much into this and over analyzing. If you want to come up with your own stats other than ESPN's be my guest. I'm open to some new clutch stats.

It can be kept as simple as this, really, and it tells the story.

My point is, that there are no one stat that can fully gauge a player's abilities. If you want to use the stats to bolster an argument it's one thing, but the stats can't be the sole factor in determining abilities. My argument is against using stats as the end all be all in an argument about a players abilities.


Last edited by JOHNSNAKE06; 03-07-2010 at 06:30 PM..
 8 years ago '07        #148
Cambury 39 heat pts39
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Lebron has 2 buzzer beaters for his career and 1 of them were they were losing (Orl conf finals Game 2) the other tie game last season vs. GS. I wouldn't say he was clutch ima jus say he has a go to move and it works regardless of the time of game and that is the reason for the "clutch stats". Now as far as k!ller instinct and this is different from clutch I would say he is very good when up and his team has the momentum he can put a 1 point game outta reach very fast and often last 5 min or less in da game. In other scenarios I have seen him not take command of the game win or lose when he should have as well I have seen Cle b down to a team, momentum won't b in his favor take a bad shot or drive to da basket and if he doesn't get the shot or call game is done. whereas if u take a player like Kobe u can feel like they jus might b done and he can swing momentum wit jus one shot or a series of shots. I think k!ller Instinct is imposing your will on the outcome and not letting anyone else decided it for u sometimes u do win and sometimes u lose but jus the physical act of a.ssertion is having a k!ller instinct esp. when was has done so and is victorious
Posted via Mobile Device


Last edited by Cambury; 03-07-2010 at 06:52 PM..
 03-07-2010, 06:53 PM         #149
Rynoh  OP
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 Cambury said:
Lebron has 2 buzzer beaters for his career and 1 of them were they were losing (Orl conf finals Game 2) the other tie game last season vs. GS I wouldn't say he was clutch ima jus say he has a go to move and it works regardless of the time of game. Now as far as k!ller instinct and this is different from clutch I would say he is very good when up and his team has the momentum he can put a 1 point game outta reach very fast and often last 5 min or less in da game. In other scenarios I have seen him not take command of the game win or lose when he should have as well I have seen Cle b down to a team, momentum won't b in his favor take a bad shot or drive to da basket and if he doesn't get the shot or call game is done. whereas if u take a player like Kobe u can feel like they jus might b done and he can swing momentum wit jus one shot or a series of shots. I think k!ller Instinct is imposing your will on the outcome and not letting anyone else decided it for u sometimes u do win and sometimes u lose but jus the physical act of a.ssertion is having a k!ller instinct esp. when was has done so and is victorious
Posted via Mobile Device
LeBron wasn't as a.ssertive as Kobe when he first came into the league, LeBron has really only started being VERY a.ssertive starting two seasons ago (mainly in the Washington series).
 8 years ago '07        #150
Cambury 39 heat pts39
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 WilliamHBonnie said:
LeBron wasn't as a.ssertive as Kobe when he first came into the league, LeBron has really only started being VERY a.ssertive starting two seasons ago (mainly in the Washington series).
:iagree:
 8 years ago '09        #151
TheG1ftedOne 4 heat pts
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 sneekas said:
my balls still itch
What the hell

Anyways...

I cant believe we sit here and rely on stats to tell if someone is clutch or not

If your clutch your clutch, if your not then your not, and Lebron IS clutch but he is no level of Kobe, or even close

Kobe is one of the GOAT clutch players, pretty much him and Jordan are in a class of their own
 8 years ago '09        #152
TheG1ftedOne 4 heat pts
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 WilliamHBonnie said:
LeBron wasn't as a.ssertive as Kobe when he first came into the league, LeBron has really only started being VERY a.ssertive starting two seasons ago (mainly in the Washington series).
Yes I agree but he is still passive to a fault, even now
 8 years ago '06        #153
JOHNSNAKE06 
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 AbsLikeJesus said:
Those people are idiots


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This stat was started 1 YEAR before LeBron was drafted. Not only that, but Kobe hit 5 FG this year alone. Coming into this season, LeBron has more of these FG than Kobe in LESS time
You actually started the thread by making this comparison, making it a versus stat.
 03-07-2010, 10:31 PM         #154
AbsLikeJesus  OP
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 JOHNSNAKE06 said:
You actually started the thread by making this comparison, making it a versus stat.
I compared him to Kobe not to be AGAINST Kobe, but to be IN RELATION to Kobe. I could make a thread right now in BXSC and I call it "Fill in the blank!" with the first pots being "____ is clutch" and majority of the posters would say "Kobe!". This is to help people understand that LeBron is clutch as well, and that Kobe isn't FAR AND AHEAD of everyone in every sense of the word clutch. LeBron scoring more FG's in 24 seconds left/1 possession games than Kobe with 1 year less is a very interesting and impressive stat.

The hypothesis of BXSC is that Kobe is head and shoulders above everyone in clutch. I'm just helping to prove other wise. Yes this isn't the only stat, but people are being ignorant if they choose to ignore this.
 8 years ago '06        #155
JOHNSNAKE06 
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 AbsLikeJesus said:
I compared him to Kobe not to be AGAINST Kobe, but to be IN RELATION to Kobe. I could make a thread right now in BXSC and I call it "Fill in the blank!" with the first pots being "____ is clutch" and majority of the posters would say "Kobe!". This is to help people understand that LeBron is clutch as well, and that Kobe isn't FAR AND AHEAD of everyone in every sense of the word clutch. LeBron scoring more FG's in 24 seconds left/1 possession games than Kobe with 1 year less is a very interesting and impressive stat.

The hypothesis of BXSC is that Kobe is head and shoulders above everyone in clutch. I'm just helping to prove other wise. Yes this isn't the only stat, but people are being ignorant if they choose to ignore this.
In all of my post I was doing the same thing, but you said that I was making it a versus stat. I never once said that Lebron was or wasn't "clutch", I just questioned the stat that you posted. I think that those stats alone can't prove anything or change anyone's point of view. My posts weren't to say that you are wrong about Lebron, they were to prove that that stat doesn't prove anything. I just don't agree with relying solely on stats to make a.ssumptions about a player's impact on a game or a player's abilities. It's nothing against you, it's just that there are so many people that rely on a box score and don't watch the games. They throw stats around like PER, or rebound rate, or a.ssists per 48 minutes, stats that alone prove nothing.
 03-08-2010, 01:46 AM         #156
Rynoh  OP
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 TheG1ftedOne said:
Yes I agree but he is still passive to a fault, even now
Please explain.
 03-08-2010, 01:50 AM         #157
Rynoh  OP
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 JOHNSNAKE06 said:
In all of my post I was doing the same thing, but you said that I was making it a versus stat. I never once said that Lebron was or wasn't "clutch", I just questioned the stat that you posted. I think that those stats alone can't prove anything or change anyone's point of view. My posts weren't to say that you are wrong about Lebron, they were to prove that that stat doesn't prove anything. I just don't agree with relying solely on stats to make a.ssumptions about a player's impact on a game or a player's abilities. It's nothing against you, it's just that there are so many people that rely on a box score and don't watch the games. They throw stats around like PER, or rebound rate, or a.ssists per 48 minutes, stats that alone prove nothing.
So if stats mean nothing, then Jawad Williams is better than, say, Danny Granger?

If not for stats, how would you be able to determine the difference in how good two players are pitted against one another... I'm having a hard time following your post.
 8 years ago '05        #158
clevel216 
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"Men Lie, Women Lie, Numbers Don't"
 03-08-2010, 02:02 AM         #159
LaRy BLanco  OP
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 Knowledgeable said:
Yep. Kobe has 4 rings and bron has 0 .Your right numbers don't lie
ETHER!!!!

and I cant even stand kobe but I always appreciate a nice comeback


Last edited by LaRy BLanco; 03-08-2010 at 11:55 AM..
 8 years ago '06        #160
JOHNSNAKE06 
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 WilliamHBonnie said:
So if stats mean nothing, then Jawad Williams is better than, say, Danny Granger?

If not for stats, how would you be able to determine the difference in how good two players are pitted against one another... I'm having a hard time following your post.
Never said stats mean nothing, I said stats are not the sole measure of a player, especially when they play different positions, have different roles, on different teams, or play on poor teams. Stats are a part of the equation, but to use stats and stats only is foolish. Numbers can be misleading, can be manipulated, and can't accurately measure intangible attributes or a player's impact on a game. There are players that can make a huge impact on a game, and when you look at the box score their stats don't jump out at you. The player that leads the league in steals, isn't always the best defender. A player that leads the league in FG% doesn't have the best shot. The player that leads the league in 3pt% isn't always the best 3pt shooter. For instance, the best perimeter defenders are rarely among the leaders in steals or blocked shots. When Bruce Bowen was in the NBA, he was considered an elite defensive player. Meanwhile, defensive statistics show that a player like Allen Iverson, who was never an elite defender, was better. Bowen was a better defender, and had a greater defensive impact on the game but the box score can't quantify his contributions. My point is, a player can be statistically better than another player, but not be a better basketball player. It takes more than stats to accurately gauge a player's abilities, contributions, and skills.
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