michael jordan's competition...?

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 01-20-2009, 10:25 PM         #161
FlashP3  OP
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 DJ-QUIK said:
jordan never guarded the greatest player let alone shut anyone down. chris jackson burned jordan a.ss when he tried to guard him and pippen guarded magic in the finals. jordan was so overrated its not even funny. kobe>>jordan and even thought they hate it its real
well at worst mj was guarding the 2nd best guard on the floor and plenty of times he was guarding the best guard watch the old series against the knicks.

kobe didnt even guard the 2nd best guard in the finals last year
 9 years ago '05        #162
dmunson318 
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 DJ-QUIK said:
jordan never guarded the greatest player let alone shut anyone down. chris jackson burned jordan a.ss when he tried to guard him and pippen guarded magic in the finals. jordan was so overrated its not even funny. kobe>>jordan and even thought they hate it its real
only reason u know this is because u saw the youtube video. and he burned many until he was shunned away from the nba by not accepting the rules. so to argue that sh*t is like arguing daniel gibson having his run in the playoffs awhile ago. we keep telling u over and over jordan set the bold print for kobe to highlight copy n paste n*gga. u gotta be 16
 9 years ago '06        #163
philly337 20 heat pts20
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 str8_akademiks said:
Efficiency rating is developed by a different person.
It's a measure of cumulative stats and that's about it. Doesn't measure defense or anything else.
It's also adjusted to a league average. Therefore it's not an actual measure of individual "efficiency", but a measure of "efficiency" compared to your peers in the same year.
And I use the term efficiency loosely because it gives arbitrary values to certain stats and players who have the offense designed around them where they are ball dominant (eg. dominant centers and pg's) tend to have inflated PER.
TS% gives values to the basket based on how many points it gives you. That's why I think it's valid.
And MJ has a higher TS% than Kobe too so I don't know why you think I've got ulterior motives when I'm discrediting bullsh*t stats. - Since you think the only reason I'm doing this is because I "don't like MJ".
dog player efficiency rating and true shooting percentage were both created by john hollinger and are both flawed...with the PER it only account for blocks and steals on defense and goes off league averages that aren't accurate . and TS% has the same fu*ked up flawed formula that many people debate except for dumbasses like you who want to find some cool formula for everything when it's not needed

"Economist/NBA analyst David Berri has been particularly critical of Hollinger in the past. According to the Wages of Wins author, Hollinger fails to provide any true statistical/mathematical backing to his formulas and thus many, especially in academic circles, see his work as lacking rigorous foundations"



fallllllll backkkkkkk


Last edited by philly337; 01-20-2009 at 10:29 PM..
 9 years ago '06        #164
philly337 20 heat pts20
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well hopefully u've given up since ur tryin to bring in stats that are flawed that u do not even know the roots of then when they get discredited u disappear.......

"Created by John Hollinger, True Shooting Percentage was designed to measure the all around efficiency of a scorer. It can be calculated by using the formula: TS% = Pts/(2*(FGA + (.47*FTA)."

I.....fu*k with your soul like ether
Will....Teach you the king you know you
Not....God's son across the belly
Lose....I prove you lost already
 9 years ago '04        #165
A.G 27 heat pts27
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 philly337 said:
dog player efficiency rating and true shooting percentage were both created by john hollinger and are both flawed...with the PER it only account for blocks and steals on defense and goes off league averages that aren't accurate . and TS% has the same fu*ked up flawed formula that many people debate except for dumbasses like you who want to find some cool formula for everything when it's not needed

"Economist/NBA analyst David Berri has been particularly critical of Hollinger in the past. According to the Wages of Wins author, Hollinger fails to provide any true statistical/mathematical backing to his formulas and thus many, especially in academic circles, see his work as lacking rigorous foundations"


fallllllll backkkkkkk
Do you have any proof that it was created by John Hollinger? As far as I know, Hollinger's biggest "contribution" to the world of sports stats has been PER and damn near anyone with common sense and knowledge of stats has seen it as a flawed rating.
True shooting percentage isn't some bullsh*t calculation. It's actually a simple calculation, and that's the reason for it's acceptance and the PER rating not being accepted. Obviously the quote at the end (which I can only a.ssume you got from wikipedia) is in reference to the PER.
Here's the evidence of the arbitrary values I (and David Berri) were talking about. Try to decipher it if you can.

uPER = (1 / MP) *
[ 3P
+ (2/3) * AST
+ (2 - factor * (team_AST / team_FG)) * FG
+ (FT *0.5 * (1 + (1 - (team_AST / team_FG)) + (2/3) * (team_AST / team_FG)))
- VOP * TOV
- VOP * DRB% * (FGA - FG)
- VOP * 0.44 * (0.44 + (0.56 * DRB%)) * (FTA - FT)
+ VOP * (1 - DRB%) * (TRB - ORB)
+ VOP * DRB% * ORB
+ VOP * STL
+ VOP * DRB% * BLK
- PF * ((lg_FT / lg_PF) - 0.44 * (lg_FTA / lg_PF) * VOP) ]
P.s.

Berri has come out in opposition of traditional linear weights-style NBA evaluatory statistics like TENDEX and the NBA's official "efficiency" metric, claiming that they overvalue scoring and undervalue shooting efficiency. He has also been critical of John Hollinger's Player Efficiency Rating in the past, a.sserting that the PER formula is not empirically sound because the weights for each event were established intuitively by Hollinger rather than through a regression (a la Wins Produced). He has also criticized non-box score-based stats like Adjusted Plus-Minus, claiming that the basic box score numbers tell decision-makers most of what they need to know about a player's value.

Nowhere does it say anything about TS%.

Thanks for coming out.
 9 years ago '06        #166
philly337 20 heat pts20
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 str8_akademiks said:
Do you have any proof that it was created by John Hollinger? As far as I know, Hollinger's biggest "contribution" to the world of sports stats has been PER and damn near anyone with common sense and knowledge of stats has seen it as a flawed rating.
True shooting percentage isn't some bullsh*t calculation. It's actually a simple calculation, and that's the reason for it's acceptance and the PER rating not being accepted. Obviously the quote at the end (which I can only a.ssume you got from wikipedia) is in reference to the PER.
Here's the evidence of the arbitrary values I (and David Berri) were talking about. Try to decipher it if you can.


P.s.




Nowhere does it say anything about TS%.

Thanks for coming out.
wow u just don't stop...ur really going to set here and argue that hollinger didn't create it?On top of it once i prove he did ur going to say that one is flawed and one isn't because one fits ur argument and looks how u want it to look and one doesn't lol?Both are flawed...both are made by the same dipsh*t.All you have to do is search...hell half the time u just have to watch sportscenter.i've noticed them using per and TS a few times the past few months and they ALWAYS have john hollinger's name with it like he has it copyrighted or some sh*t


here is one link...there are plenty more just do a search lazy a.ss




also u think throwin the formula up makes it look complex or someothing?I know the fu*kin formula dumbass and i can put up the per formula that looks like it comes out to be something meaningful too but when it's said and done the sh*t has bum players above great players and vice verca...they're flawed and most people think so


Last edited by philly337; 01-20-2009 at 10:55 PM..
 9 years ago '04        #167
A.G 27 heat pts27
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 philly337 said:
well hopefully u've given up since ur tryin to bring in stats that are flawed that u do not even know the roots of then when they get discredited u disappear.......

"Created by John Hollinger, True Shooting Percentage was designed to measure the all around efficiency of a scorer. It can be calculated by using the formula: TS% = Pts/(2*(FGA + (.47*FTA)."

I.....fu*k with your soul like ether
Will....Teach you the king you know you
Not....God's son across the belly
Lose....I prove you lost already
LOL @ you quoting a site that has a different calculation than the one on John Hollinger's site.
So I'm supposed to trust that it was now designed by him after they post the wrong equation? Not to mention how PER is completely different from TS%... They have nothing to do with each other, so I don't even know what John Hollinger has to do with anything here.
Nothing like the sight of a "grown man" getting wet off thinking that he "ethered" someone by posting a quote that has nothing to do with the argument at hand when he knows he already lost and has no argument.
 9 years ago '04        #168
A.G 27 heat pts27
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 philly337 said:
wow u just don't stop...ur really going to set here and argue that hollinger didn't create it?On top of it once i prove he did ur going to say that one is flawed and one isn't because one fits ur argument and looks how u want it to look and one doesn't lol?Both are flawed...both are made by the same dipsh*t.All you have to do is search...hell half the time u just have to watch sportscenter.i've noticed them using per and TS a few times the past few months and they ALWAYS have john hollinger's name with it like he has it copyrighted or some sh*t


here is one link...there are plenty more just do a search lazy a.ss




also u think throwin the formula up makes it look complex or someothing?I know the fu*kin formula dumbass and i can put up the per formula that looks like it comes out to be something meaningful too but when it's said and done the sh*t has bum players above great players and vice verca...they're flawed and most people think so
Ok, and lets say Hollinger hypothetically did "invent" the TS% and the PER metric. Considering they have nothing to do with each other - what exactly are you trying to prove? I fail to see what John Hollinger and his PER metric has anything to do with the validity of the TS% value.
They don't use the same multipliers, they don't measure the same thing, they don't do anything the same.
The main reason people dispel Hollinger's PER is that he tries to claim that the person with the best PER is the best overall player in the NBA. In no way does he claim that the person with the best TS% is the best shooter in the NBA.


Last edited by A.G; 01-20-2009 at 11:00 PM..
 9 years ago '04        #169
A.G 27 heat pts27
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I'll entertain your running around in circles to try and prove a point for another 10 minutes or so before I go to sleep. Some people have to "work" in the morning.
Be quick.
 9 years ago '06        #170
philly337 20 heat pts20
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 str8_akademiks said:
Ok, and lets say Hollinger hypothetically did "invent" the TS% and the PER metric. Considering they have nothing to do with each other - what exactly are you trying to prove?
that the guy was sitting around one day and for whatever reason (to discredit a player he like,give a player he likes more credability,or because he wanted to try and invent something more superior) he made these 2 statistics by himself and they are both flawed.If one is flawed obviously he doesn't have a perfect understanding of how to make a correct formula or he would be able to do it with both

my point is also that u try and bring TS in the picture to make ur case when u don't even know who created it which makes me think u just learned about it

my point is also that no matter how many times things are thrown in ur face u can never admit ur wrong...u always have some way to discredit something or blow it off to fit ur thinking.U say field goal % means nothing and try to back it with TS when the devolper of it already has a flawed PER formula that is more accepted by sports analyst then the TS but both are two formula many analysts and scholars disagree with
 01-20-2009, 11:05 PM         #171
rawproduct03  OP
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 str8_akademiks said:
There are other ratings that are cumulative, idiot.
On their own they don't stand for anything.
^^^they do mean something dumb fu*k, it's a DIRECT result of efficiency. for example i'll take somebody that can score 25 points on 10 for 18 then somebody that scored say 32 in 10-26 cuz the more efficient you are with higher fg% means it took less shots to get there which in turn means more opportunities for your other team mates to contribut cuz you didn't spend all night jackin up shots just to get more points total. IDIOT
 9 years ago '04        #172
A.G 27 heat pts27
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And dude, it's quite obvious you don't even have a full understanding of these stats and their calculations.. What goes through your mind when you're trying to put together your sh*tty arguments in effort to try and find flaws in my posts and then failing time after time?
 9 years ago '06        #173
philly337 20 heat pts20
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 str8_akademiks said:
And dude, it's quite obvious you don't even have a full understanding of these stats and their calculations.. What goes through your mind when you're trying to put together your sh*tty arguments in effort to try and find flaws in my posts and then failing time after time?
hahahaha...yes my argument suck but u use a formula u don't even understand and don't know who created and still don't believe hollinger created it.On top of it u admitted that per is flawed but when u find out they are devolped by the same guy u discredit the one that hurts ur argument and try and stick with the TSP u don't understand
 9 years ago '04        #174
A.G 27 heat pts27
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 philly337 said:
that the guy was sitting around one day and for whatever reason (to discredit a player he like,give a player he likes more credability,or because he wanted to try and invent something more superior) he made these 2 statistics by himself and they are both flawed.If one is flawed obviously he doesn't have a perfect understanding of how to make a correct formula or he would be able to do it with both
He's actually a long time statistician. As much as I dislike the man, he has made some advancements in sports statistics and basketball stats in specific. PER is still WIDELY used, no matter how flawed it is. Whether or not he invented the TS% (which I can honestly say I don't know if he did or not) doesn't make the measure any less valid because he came up with another garbage metric.
And as for TS%, I didn't claim it was perfect. Every measurement has it's flaw.
my point is also that u try and bring TS in the picture to make ur case when u don't even know who created it which makes me think u just learned about it
I've actually used it for a couple of years now and advocated it to a lot of people I know over just FG%, 3P% & FT% on its own.
my point is also that no matter how many times things are thrown in ur face u can never admit ur wrong...u always have some way to discredit something or blow it off to fit ur thinking.U say field goal % means nothing and try to back it with TS when the devolper of it already has a flawed PER formula that is more accepted by sports analyst then the TS but both are two formula many analysts and scholars disagree with
Many analysts also agree with it. Some think it complicates sports measurements, and some people think that it makes it easier.
And yeah, I can't admit that I'm wrong because I'm stubborn as fu*k. That's just the way it is.
 9 years ago '04        #175
A.G 27 heat pts27
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 philly337 said:
hahahaha...yes my argument suck but u use a formula u don't even understand and don't know who created and still don't believe hollinger created it.On top of it u admitted that per is flawed but when u find out they are devolped by the same guy u discredit the one that hurts ur argument and try and stick with the TSP u don't understand
Nah, that's not how it works.
(forgive me for comparing idiot John Hollinger to this guy but...)

Thomas Edison invented the lightbulb, but also had over 1,000 failed inventions.
Does that make his lightbulb invention worth less?

One sh*tty invention doesn't ruin the entire batch of them, even if he did invent TS%.


I'm going to sleep. I just love spending hours on end arguing about trivial sh*t on BX.
 01-20-2009, 11:22 PM         #176
jcinema  OP
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the n*gga asked a simple question....

"Did Michael Jordan ever guard a player that was as good as Lebron James or Dwyane Wade in the late 80's or 90's...? I do remember him guarding kobe in 98 but kobe dropped 33 on his a.ss but other than kobe who was Jordan's toughest competition I think Scottie Pippen would've been his toughest but they played together so who did Jordan play against that was so good...?"

and we all fu*kin no he didnt. so why the long a.ss thread??
these n*ggas dont even have an argument. besides the fact that there is footage...and u can clearly see no athletes and all little n*ggas.....see for urself.



jus put in 1984-85 to 2002-03 and look at the long list of bums/undersized guards and forwards guarding jordan. then put in 2002-03 to 2007-08 and see the huge difference.

you dont think gail goodrich, and jeff mullins, and dave bing could play wit mike thats becuz they played 20 years b4 his time. same difference. if jordan would have gotten drafted today he'd be another 6'6 guard wit a mid range jumper and bounce.
 01-20-2009, 11:26 PM         #177
rawproduct03  OP
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^^^ONCE AGAIN
n*gga how about alex english who averaged 29ppg in his prime,dale ellis who averaged 26ppg in his prime,magic johnson (and no scottie didn't guard him every time)drexler who is 50 greatest,Dominique who averaged 30ppg in his prime,bernard king who was one of the most explosive scores ave 32ppg in his prime,charles barkley,chris mullen who averaged 25+ppg 5 years in a row,penny hardaway,gary payton and not because he was a pg either but because gary was there best player,Jamal Mashburn who was a beast in his prime,glen rice another beast in his prime averaged 26ppg in his prime,had plenty of battles with mitch richmond who is a career 21ppg score,spreewell when he was still good,jerry stackhouse when he was still explosive and athletic as fu*k same with eddie jones,Adrian Dantley who averaged 30ppg twice and is a career 24ppg score, n*ggaz act like competition was weak from 85-98 and lets not act like mj just stopped winning in 98....this n*gga DOMINATED still in 98

^^all these dudes were just as athletic and skilled as players today
 9 years ago '06        #178
philly337 20 heat pts20
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 str8_akademiks said:
Nah, that's not how it works.
(forgive me for comparing idiot John Hollinger to this guy but...)

Thomas Edison invented the lightbulb, but also had over 1,000 failed inventions.
Does that make his lightbulb invention worth less?

One sh*tty invention doesn't ruin the entire batch of them, even if he did invent TS%.


I'm going to sleep. I just love spending hours on end arguing about trivial sh*t on BX.
yea but hollinger doesn't have a light bulb or any successful invention...his TSP is just as FLAWED as his PER like i said when i first responded when ur first mentioned TSP

if u don't think so that's ur issue but even on sportcenter and in news articles u almost never see TSP used...PER gets more recognition and is more accepted then TSP and u even admit that PER is flawed and when u look at the list i can't see how u can't deny that PER is more accurate

when u look at TSP u have some of the greatest shooters ever between 60-200 with no namers in the top 50...when you look at PER although flawed its a little more reasonable....ur top 20 looks like this

1. Michael Jordan 27.91
2. Shaquille O'Neal 27.05
3. David Robinson 26.18
4. Wilt Chamberlain* 26.13
5. LeBron James 25.69
6. Bob Pettit* 25.37
7. Tim Duncan 25.07
8. Neil Johnston* 24.67
9. Charles Barkley* 24.63
10. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 24.58
11. Magic Johnson* 24.11
12. Dirk Nowitzki 23.90
13. Karl Malone 23.90
14. Kevin Garnett 23.83
15. Kobe Bryant 23.62
16. Hakeem Olajuwon* 23.59
17. Larry Bird* 23.50
18. Oscar Robertson* 23.18
19. Tracy McGrady 23.15
20. Jerry West* 22.90


and although obviously flawed in some areas atleast its in the realm of reality.If i post the top 20 of TSP it doesn't even have some of the top shooters ever even on the list...like i said they'relike 60-200
 9 years ago '05        #179
AirForce318 
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 rawproduct03 said:
^^^no it wasn't it was nice but not better then mj's for one,dwight didn't even jump,2 mj's is more prestigious cuz ewing is taller and a better defender then dwight (no hate on dwight cuz he's one of my fav)
not to beat a dead horse but um I believe that was Alonzo Mourning...
 9 years ago '06        #180
philly337 20 heat pts20
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 rawproduct03 said:
^^^ONCE AGAIN
n*gga how about alex english who averaged 29ppg in his prime,dale ellis who averaged 26ppg in his prime,magic johnson (and no scottie didn't guard him every time)drexler who is 50 greatest,Dominique who averaged 30ppg in his prime,bernard king who was one of the most explosive scores ave 32ppg in his prime,charles barkley,chris mullen who averaged 25+ppg 5 years in a row,penny hardaway,gary payton and not because he was a pg either but because gary was there best player,Jamal Mashburn who was a beast in his prime,glen rice another beast in his prime averaged 26ppg in his prime,had plenty of battles with mitch richmond who is a career 21ppg score,spreewell when he was still good,jerry stackhouse when he was still explosive and athletic as fu*k same with eddie jones,Adrian Dantley who averaged 30ppg twice and is a career 24ppg score, n*ggaz act like competition was weak from 85-98 and lets not act like mj just stopped winning in 98....this n*gga DOMINATED still in 98

^^all these dudes were just as athletic and skilled as players today
yo i'm about to say fu*k the thread they just don't get it

half the dudes jordan was playing with through the 90's are still in the league or just retired and were/are putting up the same sh*t they was back then showing the league hasn't improved much....especially since they're aging

horry was a role player with the rockets...was able to do the same sh*t with the lakers and spurs,iverson,carter,mcgrady,ray allen,jason kidd,marbury,finley...i mean the list goes on and on
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