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 12-08-2008, 03:13 PM         #341
BigDickDanny08  OP
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 wepainters said:
u should have stopped when u said a prime MJ would avg 12 pts in todays NBA
what is kobe, lebron, and shaq in his prime droppin back then?
 9 years ago '08        #342
primetime 60 heat pts60
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 Bigd*ckDanny08 said:
what is kobe, lebron, and shaq in his prime droppin back then?
thats not the point.....
shaq 25PPG + He is a beast in any era :agreement6:
lebron and kobe are between are somewhere between 20-25ppg. with handchecking and tougher D, kobe aint dropping 81 u can bet that :dancingcool:
 9 years ago '04        #343
A.G 27 heat pts27
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 wepainters said:
thats not the point.....
shaq 25PPG + He is a beast in any era :agreement6:
lebron and kobe are between are somewhere between 20-25ppg. with handchecking and tougher D, kobe aint dropping 81 u can bet that :dancingcool:
Seriously.. I don't understand why people act like handchecking is such a big deal. Kobe is primarily a perimeter player, so how does it affect him? Seriously, do you think there were absolutely no fouls back in the 80's and 90's whatsoever?
Good slashers could still get to the line with ease, and it's much easier to beat a single man defender than to beat a defense with zone principles.
Grab some tapes and actually watch games from the times that you're talking about and you'll see that what you're talking about is just incorrect.
 9 years ago '08        #344
primetime 60 heat pts60
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 str8_akademiks said:
Seriously.. I don't understand why people act like handchecking is such a big deal. Kobe is primarily a perimeter player, so how does it affect him? Seriously, do you think there were absolutely no fouls back in the 80's and 90's whatsoever?
Good slashers could still get to the line with ease, and it's much easier to beat a single man defender than to beat a defense with zone principles.
Grab some tapes and actually watch games from the times that you're talking about and you'll see that what you're talking about is just incorrect.

so u really think its easier to get a shot off with handchecking or atleast the same as it is without? there was tougher defenders back in that era and no pus*y a.ss touch fouls like there is in the nba right now

-Kobe Bryant in years that the NBA did allow the handchecking technique:
561 games - 21.77 ppg

-Kobe Bryant in the final 3 years that handchecking was allowed (01-02, 02-03, 03-04)
227 games - 26.59ppg

-Kobe Bryant since the new handchecking interpretation was instituted in 2004-05 (including 07-08)
305 games - 30.83 ppg

and i do realize that he was the main option since 04-05

Kobe's a.ssists per game have jumped from a shade over 4 a.ssists per game to 5.5 a.ssists per game since the absence of handchecking. Further proof that the absence of handchecking has opened up the game for easier scoring. Also, the aspect that most forget, with the absence of handchecking it is also easier to take more shot attempts. You can square up and face a defender face to face instead of turning your back to protect the ball which allows for the and1 style crossovers and the 'street' moves you see more prevalent in today's game. Allow handchecking and you would see perimeter players using moves similar to post moves, 20-25 feet away from the basket, just to sheild the ball.

Reggie Miller's comments 08
1. "Michael Jordan was the hardest player in history to guard" paraphrased
2. "Kobe and Iverson hardest today." paraphrased
3. Talking about Kobe: "Because of the new rules where you can't handcheck, or put your hands on players, he's able to roam free up and down the court" - 100% actual wording
---no handchecking, less contact = easier scoring
--Reggie Miller has played defense on all 3 players, MJ, Kobe, Iverson
--sidenote: Reggie held Kobe to 14ppg on 36% shooting in the 2000 finals.


Last edited by primetime; 12-08-2008 at 07:37 PM..
 9 years ago '06        #345
Addled Thoughts 1 heat pts
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Kobe with a hurt pinkie is averaging nearly thirty at his current age. Jordan at forty years old, with bum knees and a horrid supporting cast (Courtney Alexander, anyone?) was averaging 20-a game with nearly five a.ssists and five rebounds against today's players.

If anyone is going to contest his greatness, you're then quite simply an idiot. Why does this always come up? I swear, it's like trying to convince someone of something blatantly obvious, when they're solely agreed to disagree.

It's akin to staring at a white wall while someone tells you it's green just to irk you.

It's child's play.
 9 years ago '04        #346
A.G 27 heat pts27
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 wepainters said:

so u really think its easier to get a shot off with handchecking or atleast the same as it is without? there was tougher defenders back in that era and no pus*y a.ss touch fouls like there is in the nba right now

1) They weren't better defenders & there were just as many fouls in back then as there is now. The only difference is that flagrants are called more often for hard fouls .
-Kobe Bryant in years that the NBA did allow the handchecking technique:
561 games - 21.77 ppg

-Kobe Bryant in the final 3 years that handchecking was allowed (01-02, 02-03, 03-04)
227 games - 26.59ppg

-Kobe Bryant since the new handchecking interpretation was instituted in 2004-05 (including 07-08)
305 games - 30.83 ppg
and i do realize that he was the main option since 04-05
That's a bullsh*t stat because 1) Shaq was there (and GP & Malone in 04-05) and he wasn't getting as many shots 2) because his percentage is almost the same as it has been since his 3rd year in the NBA 3) since he's taken more shots per game.

Kobe's a.ssists per game have jumped from a shade over 4 a.ssists per game to 5.5 a.ssists per game since the absence of handchecking. Further proof that the absence of handchecking has opened up the game for easier scoring. Also, the aspect that most forget, with the absence of handchecking it is also easier to take more shot attempts. You can square up and face a defender face to face instead of turning your back to protect the ball which allows for the and1 style crossovers and the 'street' moves you see more prevalent in today's game. Allow handchecking and you would see perimeter players using moves similar to post moves, 20-25 feet away from the basket, just to sheild the ball.
He's been averaging over 5apg since 00-01. Stop reaching.
Reggie Miller's comments 08
1. "Michael Jordan was the hardest player in history to guard" paraphrased
2. "Kobe and Iverson hardest today." paraphrased
3. Talking about Kobe: "Because of the new rules where you can't handcheck, or put your hands on players, he's able to roam free up and down the court" - 100% actual wording
---no handchecking, less contact = easier scoring
--Reggie Miller has played defense on all 3 players, MJ, Kobe, Iverson
--sidenote: Reggie held Kobe to 14ppg on 36% shooting in the 2000 finals.
How many seasons did Reggie Miller play under the new rules? 1?


Plus hand checking is RARELY called in the NBA today. It's supposed to be called but how many times have you seen a hand checking foul called when you've watched (if you actually do watch) basketball?
-- Celtics were hand checking all series, how many times did it get called - none.
Do you have any real points?


And if the absense of hand checking has increased scoring, then why was the 80's & 90's the time when they had the highest scoring averages?


Last edited by A.G; 12-08-2008 at 07:53 PM..
 9 years ago '06        #347
Soraci7 34 heat pts34
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MJ did play in the bullsh*t touch foul era of today when on the Wiz, and still averaged 20ppg at 39 and 22.9 a year before. Even scored 43pts at the age of 40. So fu*k the hypotheticals, the numbers are there.
 9 years ago '04        #348
A.G 27 heat pts27
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 KSoraci7 said:
MJ did play in the bullsh*t touch foul era of today when on the Wiz, and still averaged 20ppg at 39 and 22.9 a year before. Even scored 43pts at the age of 40. So fu*k the hypotheticals, the numbers are there.
Yeah, except the hand check rule wasn't done away with until after he retired.
Thanks for coming out though.
 9 years ago '05        #349
katalist 231 heat pts231
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 smokeweed101. said:
Jordan played better D than Kobe.
MJ >>> Kobe :applause: :applause:
 9 years ago '08        #350
PEK 16 heat pts16
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 str8_akademiks said:
Yeah, except the hand check rule wasn't done away with until after he retired.
Thanks for coming out though.
What is the point of this sh*t. The zone rules were all in place, so if the hand check rules was still there that means it was harder.
 9 years ago '04        #351
dre03 
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 str8_akademiks said:
Yeah, except the hand check rule wasn't done away with until after he retired.
Thanks for coming out though.
WTF are you talking about???



The rule was removed the year Jordan came back not after he retired dude...Same year the zone and 8 second rules were put into place...

Now what were you talking about?
 9 years ago '06        #352
Soraci7 34 heat pts34
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 str8_akademiks said:
Yeah, except the hand check rule wasn't done away with until after he retired.
Thanks for coming out though.
Ya, 2003 was the same as the 90's/80's when it came to that :rolleyes:
 9 years ago '04        #353
A.G 27 heat pts27
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 dre03 said:
WTF are you talking about???



The rule was removed the year Jordan came back not after he retired dude...Same year the zone and 8 second rules were put into place...

Now what were you talking about?
That wasn't the hand check rule.

2004-05
• New rules were introduced to curtail hand-checking, clarify blocking fouls and call defensive three seconds to open up the game.

 9 years ago '06        #354
Soraci7 34 heat pts34
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Did Guys turn from frail fu*ks to beasts after Jordan retired in 2004 as well?? Lucky Mike :rolleyes:
 9 years ago '04        #355
A.G 27 heat pts27
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 KSoraci7 said:
Did Guys turn from frail fu*ks to beasts after Jordan retired in 2004 as well?? Lucky Mike :rolleyes:
What the fu*k are you talking about?
 9 years ago '08        #356
PEK 16 heat pts16
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 KSoraci7 said:
Did Guys turn from frail fu*ks to beasts after Jordan retired in 2004 as well?? Lucky Mike :rolleyes:
Same sh*t I was saying. mutha fu*kas act like MJ was the only athlete in the league from 84-03.
 9 years ago '04        #357
A.G 27 heat pts27
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All those poor players in the 80's & 90's.. How did they ever score with hand checking??

/sarcasm.

PPG Year
99.9 2007-2008
98.7 2006-2007
97 2005-2006
97.2 2004-2005
93.4 2003-2004
95.1 2002-2003
95.5 2001-2002
94.8 00-01
97.5 99-00
91.6 98-99
95.6 97-98
96.9 96-97
99.5 95-96
101.4 94-95
101.5 93-94
105.3 92-93
105.3 91-92
106.3 90-91
107 89-90
109.2 88-89
108.2 87-88
109.9 86-87
110.2 85-86
 9 years ago '06        #358
Soraci7 34 heat pts34
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 KSoraci7 said:
MJ did play in the bullsh*t touch foul era of today when on the Wiz, and still averaged 20ppg at 39 and 22.9 a year before. Even scored 43pts at the age of 40. So fu*k the hypotheticals, the numbers are there.
 str8_akademiks said:
Yeah, except the hand check rule wasn't done away with until after he retired.
Thanks for coming out though.
They've been calling these bullsh*t soft fouls since before 2004. Doesn't matter if the handcheckrule came out in 04. I don't need a formal "rule law" to convince me of what i've seen. Do you really believe everything you read?
 9 years ago '04        #359
A.G 27 heat pts27
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 KSoraci7 said:
They've been calling these bullsh*t soft fouls since before 2004. Doesn't matter if the handcheckrule came out in 04. I don't need a formal "rule law" to convince me of what i've seen. Do you really believe everything you read?
Are you seriously trying to say that there were no soft fouls called before then? Didn't MJ have a season where he attempted more free throws than anyone in NBA history not named Wilt Chamberlain? I guess he was the only one that deserved the fouls called against him?

And this fact even blew my mind when I saw it.. In the last 20 years (as far as I researched), the amount of free throws and personal fouls has stayed relatively consistent throughout each NBA season (+/- about 10% difference). They actually PEAKED in the 80's though.


Click NBA under each row of year if you want to see more.
 9 years ago '06        #360
Soraci7 34 heat pts34
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 str8_akademiks said:
Are you seriously trying to say that there were no soft fouls called before then? Didn't MJ have a season where he attempted more free throws than anyone in NBA history not named Wilt Chamberlain? I guess he was the only one that deserved the fouls called against him?

And this fact even blew my mind when I saw it.. In the last 20 years (as far as I researched), the amount of free throws and personal fouls has stayed relatively consistent throughout each NBA season (+/- about 10% difference). They actually PEAKED in the 80's though.


Click NBA under each row of year if you want to see more.
I think this whole debate has to do with "is it easier to score back then, or now against the different defenses, rules, player size etc."

It seems as if you were undermining players from the 90's specifically MJ, which is why i brought up the fact about his scoring at 40 only 5 years ago. But you make it seem as tho just a few years ago, right before the handchecking rule, D was either sh*t or players were nothing like they are now physically. That is what i disagreed with.

Interesting facts tho on that bballreference stuff.
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