chest and bis or chest and tris?

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 9 years ago '05        #21
JustinSane|M 
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 westcoastdog said:
^^ agreed, the real trick to keep making gains is to confuse your muscles. That dosn't mean try somthing new evey week, but evey couple of months change your pase, your split, or your reps. You will find lifts that will really work for you and can always stick with thoes through every routine, it could be as simple as changing your grip or time between reps. Bottom line keep your mucsles guessing, don't allow them to get use to one routine, cuz once that happens growth will be minaml.
That brings up a very interesting point, which is in regard to changing your routine, sets, reps, grips etc... I myself go 4 weeks before I change something, this routine I'll be changing the sets and reps on Monday. However, what really caught my eye about that was when you mentioned grip. I was at the gym the other day and I was waiting for some equipment and I was watching a guy do some curls and on each rep that I watched, the guy was in a crazy amount of pain so when he finished I went up to him and asked him if he was ok and we talked about his issue. The messed up thing was when I asked him why he doesn't just change the routine so instead of doing curls he did hammer curls as the problem was only when he did curls pal up. His response was that he had never thought about it and that he'd been doing this same routine for 4 months. I thought about it for awhile and I imagine that alot of people have that same mentality which is they find a routine that at first shows some kind of gain so they think if it works, why change it. This poor guy lifted in pain for months simply because he never thought about changing what worked 4 months ago. Just an interesting thought I had when I read your post.
 9 years ago '06        #22
Hit Em' Up 61 heat pts61
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 JustinSane said:
Not necessarily. Regardless of that though, I think this thread has made it clear that people do what works for them and you can't figure that out unless try various routines. I'm sure I could push myself to work the same areas more than once a week, but my routines aren't structured to all to allow that as well as I don't feel I need to to experience the same results.
I said that because i doubt somone who is making impressive gains wont be here asking questions, rather giving answers. The original statement made was each bodypart should only be worked once every 7 days, however (especially if your a beginner) most likely it will take two workouts with low volume to effectively hit the target muscle correctly. I'm not saying they wont make gains once weekly but they wont be reaching their full potential.

Now I'm sure SOME people's bodies may over-train when hit more then once every 7 days but most likely its because the routine isn't structured to compensate for that.

Split routines are inferior to a full body workout for serious gains. And with a full body workout done two or three times a week, your almost guaranteed to hit each body part more then once.


Last edited by Hit Em' Up; 09-21-2008 at 09:32 AM..
 9 years ago '06        #23
Hit Em' Up 61 heat pts61
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 westcoastdog said:
^^ agreed, the real trick to keep making gains is to confuse your muscles. That dosn't mean try somthing new evey week, but evey couple of months change your pase, your split, or your reps. You will find lifts that will really work for you and can always stick with thoes through every routine, it could be as simple as changing your grip or time between reps. Bottom line keep your mucsles guessing, don't allow them to get use to one routine, cuz once that happens growth will be minaml.
I don't understand what you mean by 'confusing your muscles'. If variation is what your taking about then it doesn't quite work that way. Each movement (incline BB press, DB press) have a slightly different ROM which recruits slightly different MU's. This is essential to avoid neural motor pattern burnout.
 9 years ago '05        #24
JustinSane|M 
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 Hit Em' Up said:
I said that because i doubt somone who is making impressive gains wont be here asking questions, rather giving answers. The original statement made was each bodypart should only be worked once every 7 days, however (especially if your a beginner) most likely it will take two workouts with low volume to effectively hit the target muscle correctly. I'm not saying they wont make gains once weekly but they wont be reaching their full potential.

Now I'm sure SOME people's bodies may over-train when hit more then once every 7 days but most likely its because the routine isn't structured to compensate for that.

Split routines are inferior to a full body workout for serious gains. And with a full body workout done two or three times a week, your almost guaranteed to hit each body part more then once.
I've never heard that a full body workout is superior to splits for gains at all. Do you have any links you can post on that so I can read up? I'm always down to try a new routine which I'm due for.
 9 years ago '04        #25
123456 1 heat pts
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 JustinSane said:
I've never heard that a full body workout is superior to splits for gains at all. Do you have any links you can post on that so I can read up? I'm always down to try a new routine which I'm due for.
That's cause everyone is seen doing splits. Full body workouts are some of the best ways to get some quick gains, especially strength gains. That's why in alot of my posts in this section I talk about rippetoes or bill starrs 5x5

I'm a strong believer in getting as much strength as possible before getting on a split...full body workouts are the best at strength gain. splits are the best for size. but too many people go into the gym and start curling 10lb dumbbells cause they don't have the strength to go heavier. they'll def get stronger while on a split, but it could be a lot quicker

edit: I'm talking about workouts that mainly focus on compound movements


Last edited by 123456; 09-21-2008 at 01:55 PM..
 09-21-2008, 03:04 PM         #26
westcoastdog  OP
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 Hit Em' Up said:
I don't understand what you mean by 'confusing your muscles'. If variation is what your taking about then it doesn't quite work that way. Each movement (incline BB press, DB press) have a slightly different ROM which recruits slightly different MU's. This is essential to avoid neural motor pattern burnout.
you have to change your rep scheme or rest period every 6 -10 weeks, your body will get use to doing (4 set of 8 reps and 90 sec between sets) example
so once your body has got use to that routine it dosn't have to work as hard to get through the workout, which wil result in less growth.
 9 years ago '04        #27
123456 1 heat pts
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By the way...I'd like everyone to read this:

Thibaudeau about 3/4 of the way down is sayin damn near exactly what I've been saying in this thread about working out muscles twice, full body workouts. That link is a whole debate between full body and splits

"I really think that one of the reasons why a lot of people don't actually get a lot of results from a hitting a muscle group once every five to seven days is that they aren't able (or not willing) to train hard enough to cause the amount of micro-trauma that will necessitate that amount of recovery time. If you truly impose a lot of micro-trauma to your muscles, you will need five to seven days to recover and rebuild your muscles stronger.

But if the average trainee doesn't train hard enough, he won't progress optimally. However, if he were to hit each muscle group more frequently, he could have some more progress because what he lacks in micro-trauma per session he makes up for causing smaller amounts of micro-trauma more often. It's all a matter of the ratio between damage and recovery time.

Along these lines, beginners can and should train each muscle group more often than more advanced individuals. Why? Because their CNS isn't as efficient at recruiting muscle fibers. So "practicing" more often will improve their capacity to use the muscles and that will make their training more effective. Basically, they should first learn to use their muscles."


Last edited by 123456; 09-21-2008 at 04:32 PM..
 9 years ago '06        #28
Hit Em' Up 61 heat pts61
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 JustinSane said:
I've never heard that a full body workout is superior to splits for gains at all. Do you have any links you can post on that so I can read up? I'm always down to try a new routine which I'm due for.
The only real benefit to splits that I can see on a split is less general fatigue. Some people say that you need x amount of exercises to effectively hit each muscle which is most effective on a split. That's bullsh*t. Oh sure Arnold Swarchenegger used splits but at the same time you'd find a lot of bodybuilders and genetic freaks doing a lot of sh*t that you would never.

A sport scientist buy the name of kosterzoo used to post here. He said any exercise coupled with a huge lift like dL's or Squats will benefit any exercise done in the same workout (particularly afterwards).

You can see an example of this in HST routine on their website. Now the workout isn't structured the best (same exercises day in/day out, etc) but it's built on very solid principles and one of them was posted in the above paragraph (starting each workout with squats of dl's) and others such as utilizing 2 or less work sets, strategic deconditioning, etc.

If you have never heard of the squat and milk check it out. It consists of doing the squats (I think once weekly or maybe twice) as the staple of the workout. After the warmup sets, you squat one work set with EXTREME intensity where you hit failure at the 15th rep or so and use a rest/pause method to complete the rest where another rep is not physically possible with good forum after 20. And the milk part is just drinking a lot of milk throughout the day to maintain a sufficient supply of protein. There's more to it as well.

Very simple, yet uses very valuable principles. I'm sure anybody could make great gains of that routine and never met anyone who hasn't.

In terms of specific links ill search around the web a little when i finish my a.ssignment and try to get you some credible links. Now once again i have to clearly point out that Im just saying what i beleive is superior. In no way am i saying doing the other will result in zero gains.


Last edited by Hit Em' Up; 09-21-2008 at 06:04 PM..
 9 years ago '06        #29
Hit Em' Up 61 heat pts61
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 westcoastdog said:
you have to change your rep scheme or rest period every 6 -10 weeks, your body will get use to doing (4 set of 8 reps and 90 sec between sets) example
so once your body has got use to that routine it dosn't have to work as hard to get through the workout, which wil result in less growth.
Progress should always be monitored in the form of weight/rep increase in exercises from workout to workout. Of course it'll be easier the second time around. You'd better hope your hitting slightly more reps or more weight or else your going nowhere now are you.


Last edited by Hit Em' Up; 09-21-2008 at 06:05 PM..
 9 years ago '06        #30
Hit Em' Up 61 heat pts61
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 123456 said:
By the way...I'd like everyone to read this:

Thibaudeau about 3/4 of the way down is sayin damn near exactly what I've been saying in this thread about working out muscles twice, full body workouts. That link is a whole debate between full body and splits

"I really think that one of the reasons why a lot of people don't actually get a lot of results from a hitting a muscle group once every five to seven days is that they aren't able (or not willing) to train hard enough to cause the amount of micro-trauma that will necessitate that amount of recovery time. If you truly impose a lot of micro-trauma to your muscles, you will need five to seven days to recover and rebuild your muscles stronger.

But if the average trainee doesn't train hard enough, he won't progress optimally. However, if he were to hit each muscle group more frequently, he could have some more progress because what he lacks in micro-trauma per session he makes up for causing smaller amounts of micro-trauma more often. It's all a matter of the ratio between damage and recovery time.

Along these lines, beginners can and should train each muscle group more often than more advanced individuals. Why? Because their CNS isn't as efficient at recruiting muscle fibers. So "practicing" more often will improve their capacity to use the muscles and that will make their training more effective. Basically, they should first learn to use their muscles."
Yea that's pretty much agreeable. Completely goes hand in hand with what Dorian Yates said about beginners not being able to reach a desirable intensity during a workout.
 9 years ago '05        #31
JustinSane|M 
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 123456 said:
By the way...I'd like everyone to read this:

Thibaudeau about 3/4 of the way down is sayin damn near exactly what I've been saying in this thread about working out muscles twice, full body workouts. That link is a whole debate between full body and splits

"I really think that one of the reasons why a lot of people don't actually get a lot of results from a hitting a muscle group once every five to seven days is that they aren't able (or not willing) to train hard enough to cause the amount of micro-trauma that will necessitate that amount of recovery time. If you truly impose a lot of micro-trauma to your muscles, you will need five to seven days to recover and rebuild your muscles stronger.

But if the average trainee doesn't train hard enough, he won't progress optimally. However, if he were to hit each muscle group more frequently, he could have some more progress because what he lacks in micro-trauma per session he makes up for causing smaller amounts of micro-trauma more often. It's all a matter of the ratio between damage and recovery time.

Along these lines, beginners can and should train each muscle group more often than more advanced individuals. Why? Because their CNS isn't as efficient at recruiting muscle fibers. So "practicing" more often will improve their capacity to use the muscles and that will make their training more effective. Basically, they should first learn to use their muscles."
Good read. However, this part here caught my eye as this is the type of lifter I am.

"On the opposite end of the spectrum, bodybuilders need to develop each muscle to the maximum of their capacity while keeping the muscles in proportion. For that purpose, a whole-body approach isn't adequate because it's highly unlikely that an individual will be able to fully develop every single muscle in proper proportion from a whole body split. It would require way too much volume per session; it would end up being counterproductive as far as recovery goes."

Also

"Another problem with whole body training for bodybuilders is that you'll be much less effective on the latter exercises in the workout because of the accumulated fatigue. This isn't as much of a problem with athletic-type training because there's less metabolic accumulation and less glycogen drainage (because athletes will normally focus on lower rep ranges or explosive movements), so they'll still have plenty of energy for the latter exercises."

Infact, when he talks about routines, my routine is exactly as he has it for Option 1 for bodybuilding. I do agree however, that for the other types of lifting, a full body routine is more suitable.
 9 years ago '04        #32
123456 1 heat pts
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what he's talking about is bodybuilders that already have a base....I don't know what level you're at but just like 1 of the people in the article says, 90% of people are not at that type of level to do a split. they're just slowing themselves down on their progress....people are trying to LIFT like they are bodybuilders when in fact they're not bodybuilders

If you're one of those genetic freaks or seeing some serious gains on a split, keep doing what you're doing. But I really recommend you to at least try a full body program, a push/pull, or similar programs
 9 years ago '05        #33
JustinSane|M 
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 123456 said:
what he's talking about is bodybuilders that already have a base....I don't know what level you're at but just like 1 of the people in the article says, 90% of people are not at that type of level to do a split. they're just slowing themselves down on their progress....people are trying to LIFT like they are bodybuilders when in fact they're not bodybuilders

If you're one of those genetic freaks or seeing some serious gains on a split, keep doing what you're doing. But I really recommend you to at least try a full body program, a push/pull, or similar programs
I would try a full body if I felt my body could do it. I did read the part that you are talking about with the 90%, but I do alot of really heavy lifting and I know that I couldn't use proper form or hit those heavy weights if I had to do a full body workout. Infact, I used to do strength training which I did to get a base for what I'm doing now and I could easily do a full body, but I was dealing with much lighter weight too.
 9 years ago '07        #34
TheIncomparable 
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chest/biceps
 09-22-2008, 06:56 AM         #35
Young.Cutthroat  OP
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Some people say that its best to train your back and biceps on the same day since you use your biceps while training your back.
 9 years ago '06        #36
Hit Em' Up 61 heat pts61
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 JustinSane said:
I would try a full body if I felt my body could do it. I did read the part that you are talking about with the 90%, but I do alot of really heavy lifting and I know that I couldn't use proper form or hit those heavy weights if I had to do a full body workout. Infact, I used to do strength training which I did to get a base for what I'm doing now and I could easily do a full body, but I was dealing with much lighter weight too.
That's pretty exactly much what I went through in the beginning. I think all do. I remember i used to skip sets and exercises because I just wanted to leave. The key is efficiency and staying focused. Most of the time I noticed I was in the gym way too long fu*king around. Cardio on off days and Meditation right before (you can't only hit your body physically) prepare you very well for a workout. Also it could be how you warm up, and what you drink during your workout, etc. Now I never half-ass my routines and always get them done.


Last edited by Hit Em' Up; 09-22-2008 at 07:51 AM..
 9 years ago '04        #37
mims820 3 heat pts
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chest and bi's. i know bodybuilders pro and amateur alike and more than the majority say chest and bi's. I do it, it sure as hell worked for me.
 09-22-2008, 01:26 PM         #38
westcoastdog  OP
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 Hit Em' Up said:
Progress should always be monitored in the form of weight/rep increase in exercises from workout to workout. Of course it'll be easier the second time around. You'd better hope your hitting slightly more reps or more weight or else your going nowhere now are you.
I agree you want to make sure you are adding weight to your lifts as you progress. But you dont have to increase weight/rep to make progress all the time, you could reduce your rest time between set, or even speed up your reps, you can change your grip or angle. You can do drop set, burn outs. There are alot of ways to grow, not just adding more weight.
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