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Feb 12 - Former Goldman Sachs CEO rips Sanders after NH win: 'He'll ruin our economy'


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 3 days ago '05        #176
b_ez 
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Not sure if this guy thinks this will change anyones mind. The fact that he's so worried strengthens beanies position if anything.
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 3 days ago '06        #177
Kingme 
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 GrezyNclean said
So let me start by saying that when I said trickle down economics is bullsh*t I meant that it doesn't work as well as rich people frame it.

The rich do put money back into the economy when they are given tax breaks. Not as much as they should, but they do. If you give a rich person 20 million and they put in $10 million, thats still more than giving someone $2400. If you take away that $20 million and hit them with an additional tax thats going to decrease the economy.

And I think this is where we keep butting heads. You think consumer spending and small business purchases can make up for large corporations not participating due to a pull back from taxes.

THIS IS NOT TRUE. I've seen the numbers. Bernie will probably decrease the wealth gap but at the cost of the economy.

For example:
Rich person makes $10 billion (spends $4 billion in economy)
Average person makes $50,000 (spends $45,000 in economy)

Bernie taxes rich person to pay for programs like free education and healthcare

Rich person now makes $5 billion (spends $2 billion in economy)
Average person now makes $70,000 (spends $65,000 in economy)

Wealth gap has grown closer but at a loss to our economy. What math are you coming up with that has our economy compensating for this loss in spend. And no theory (it'll happen small business can fulfill the demand) bullsh*t.
The wealthy don't put jack back into the economy, how many times are you going to get fooled by that logic before you feel ashamed?

You've "seen the numbers", word? Post them

During Reagan's second term, he presided over another major tax rate cut as part of a more general tax reform act. The package cut the top tax rate to its lowest point in the postwar era at 28%. During the subsequent five years, the economy experienced a small recession during George H. W. Bush’s presidency.

While President George H. W. Bush rolled back some of Reagan’s tax cuts, slightly raising the rate for top income earners, President Bill Clinton introduced the first major increase to the top marginal tax rate since the 1950s, up to 39.6%. The economy posted slightly above average growth for the ensuing five years.

President George W. Bush cut taxes in two packages, one in 2001 and in 2003. On aggregate, they cut the top tax rate to 35%. Because Congress passed this package through budget reconciliation, the tax rate cuts were set to expire in 10 years. Shortly after the full tax rate cuts went into effect, the economy began to decline, albeit slowly, before crashing in 2008.



Show your numbers fam or stop responding. And show me where big business has ever closed shop because of a tax increase.
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 3 days ago '07        #178
GrezyNclean 
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 Kingme said
The wealthy don't put jack back into the economy, how many times are you going to get fooled by that logic before you feel ashamed?

You've "seen the numbers", word? Post them

During Reagan's second term, he presided over another major tax rate cut as part of a more general tax reform act. The package cut the top tax rate to its lowest point in the postwar era at 28%. During the subsequent five years, the economy experienced a small recession during George H. W. Bush’s presidency.

While President George H. W. Bush rolled back some of Reagan’s tax cuts, slightly raising the rate for top income earners, President Bill Clinton introduced the first major increase to the top marginal tax rate since the 1950s, up to 39.6%. The economy posted slightly above average growth for the ensuing five years.

President George W. Bush cut taxes in two packages, one in 2001 and in 2003. On aggregate, they cut the top tax rate to 35%. Because Congress passed this package through budget reconciliation, the tax rate cuts were set to expire in 10 years. Shortly after the full tax rate cuts went into effect, the economy began to decline, albeit slowly, before crashing in 2008.



Show your numbers fam or stop responding. And show me where big business has ever closed shop because of a tax increase.
Ok so in good faith I looked this up. I think I found something that may benefit both of our arguments. The Clinton example is the best example I could find. It is true Clinton did raise taxes and cut spending in defense (which cutting defense spending I support) and the economy grew at 4% which is good. BUT when it came to raising taxes in 1997 he exempted capital gains and estate taxes, raising the amount rich people could take in for profit outside of income. Obviously other things were agreed upon too BUT I can support raising taxes if something like this was added as it is another way for rich people to make money and recoup some of which they have to spend in taxes to also spend on the economy.

As for corporate tax rates, I could only find right leaning narratives like the one below. It supports my argument but it is right leaning:


Can't really find any left or center ones so I dunno. BUT...I'm willing to come to the center with you on this one as well. If we can't stop corporations from dodging taxes and using loopholes then we can both agree raising them won't do sh*t. Focus on filling the loopholes first and then we can have a discussion. But I am in favor of lower taxes to corporations I will admit.

 3 days ago '06        #179
Kingme 
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 GrezyNclean said
Ok so in good faith I looked this up. I think I found something that may benefit both of our arguments. The Clinton example is the best example I could find. It is true Clinton did raise taxes and cut spending in defense (which cutting defense spending I support) and the economy grew at 4% which is good. BUT when it came to raising taxes in 1997 he exempted capital gains and estate taxes, raising the amount rich people could take in for profit outside of income. Obviously other things were agreed upon too BUT I can support raising taxes if something like this was added as it is another way for rich people to make money and recoup some of which they have to spend in taxes to also spend on the economy.

As for corporate tax rates, I could only find right leaning narratives like the one below. It supports my argument but it is right leaning:


Can't really find any left or center ones so I dunno. BUT...I'm willing to come to the center with you on this one as well. If we can't stop corporations from dodging taxes and using loopholes then we can both agree raising them won't do sh*t. Focus on filling the loopholes first and then we can have a discussion. But I am in favor of lower taxes to corporations I will admit.
Lowering corporate taxes and a wealth tax are 2 completely different things fam.

Trickle-down economics doesn't include corporate taxes. That being said you can lower the corporate tax rate all you want like Trump did and it's not going to beat the 0-1% tax rate you get from pulling a "Double Irish", "Dutch Sandwich", or banking in the Bermuda "Black Hole". You remember when Trump campaigned on closing tax loopholes? Well he has not even attempted to do so once in office and never mentions it anymore.

There are no studies that show any benefit to Trickle Down Economics for any group other than the elites... That's why Bush Sr. (A Republican) called it Voodoo Economics when Reagan was doing it. And as long as both of us have been alive Trickle Down always leads to a recession and an increase in the wealth gap.

 3 days ago '07        #180
GrezyNclean 
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 Kingme said
Lowering corporate taxes and a wealth tax are 2 completely different things fam.

Trickle-down economics doesn't include corporate taxes. That being said you can lower the corporate tax rate all you want like Trump did and it's not going to beat the 0-1% tax rate you get from pulling a "Double Irish", "Dutch Sandwich", or banking in the Bermuda "Black Hole". You remember when Trump campaigned on closing tax loopholes? Well he has not even attempted to do so once in office and never mentions it anymore.

There are no studies that show any benefit to Trickle Down Economics for any group other than the elites... That's why Bush Sr. (A Republican) called it Voodoo Economics when Reagan was doing it. And as long as both of us have been alive Trickle Down always leads to a recession and an increase in the wealth gap.
I agree they are 2 completely different things that's why I addressed them separately.

As to your last paragraph I agree wholeheartedly. But again, I think Trickle Down Economics is bullsh*t which is why I don't agree it leads recessions. I think it was deregulation. I think wealthy people could have been taxed at a 75% rate and it still would have happened if you did the same type of deregulation on housing that they did.

They were giving people the ability to borrow on dam near no money down for 6 figure houses. How is that Trickle Down Economics? That's predatory behavior which needs to be regulated.

 3 days ago '06        #181
Kingme 
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 GrezyNclean said
I agree they are 2 completely different things that's why I addressed them separately.

As to your last paragraph I agree wholeheartedly. But again, I think Trickle Down Economics is bullsh*t which is why I don't agree it leads recessions. I think it was deregulation. I think wealthy people could have been taxed at a 75% rate and it still would have happened if you did the same type of deregulation on housing that they did.

They were giving people the ability to borrow on dam near no money down for 6 figure houses. How is that Trickle Down Economics? That's predatory behavior which needs to be regulated.
The housing crisis was only one part of the recession bro.


The Great Recession began in December 2007 and ended in June 2009, which makes it the longest recession since World War II. Beyond its duration, the Great Recession was notably severe in several respects. Real gross domestic product (GDP) fell 4.3 percent from its peak in 2007Q4 to its trough in 2009Q2, the largest decline in the postwar era (based on data as of October 2013). The unemployment rate, which was 5 percent in December 2007, rose to 9.5 percent in June 2009, and peaked at 10 percent in October 2009.
The net worth of US households and nonprofit organizations fell from a peak of approximately $69 trillion in 2007 to a trough of $55 trillion in 2009.








When President George W. Bush passed massive tax cuts for the rich and a tax amnesty on corporate profits held overseas, Republicans claimed these cuts would create jobs and pay for themselves by growing the economy.

Instead, Bush turned a budget surplus into an enormous debt, with an economic recession and a net loss of private sector jobs in eight years. Bush's tax amnesty was a giveaway to corporations that went into the stock market and CEO pay, but didn't create any jobs.









Bruce Bartlett, a former aide to tax-cut advocate Rep. Jack Kemp, says the '81 tax cut made sense: The top individual tax rate was 70 percent — far above the current 39.6 percent — and the economy, unlike the relatively healthy one today, had endured a long era of stagnation.

But Bartlett, an official in the Reagan and George H.W. Bush administrations, has lost faith in tax cuts. In 1986, he notes, the United States slashed the corporate tax rate from 46 percent to 34 percent. Yet wages fell steadily. Likewise, President George W. Bush's tax cuts in 2001 and 2003 produced one of the weakest economic expansions in American history: The Bush tax cuts were still in place when the economy sank into the Great Recession of 2007-2009.





 3 days ago '07        #182
GrezyNclean 
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 Kingme said
The housing crisis was only one part of the recession bro.


The Great Recession began in December 2007 and ended in June 2009, which makes it the longest recession since World War II. Beyond its duration, the Great Recession was notably severe in several respects. Real gross domestic product (GDP) fell 4.3 percent from its peak in 2007Q4 to its trough in 2009Q2, the largest decline in the postwar era (based on data as of October 2013). The unemployment rate, which was 5 percent in December 2007, rose to 9.5 percent in June 2009, and peaked at 10 percent in October 2009.
The net worth of US households and nonprofit organizations fell from a peak of approximately $69 trillion in 2007 to a trough of $55 trillion in 2009.







When President George W. Bush passed massive tax cuts for the rich and a tax amnesty on corporate profits held overseas, Republicans claimed these cuts would create jobs and pay for themselves by growing the economy.

Instead, Bush turned a budget surplus into an enormous debt, with an economic recession and a net loss of private sector jobs in eight years. Bush's tax amnesty was a giveaway to corporations that went into the stock market and CEO pay, but didn't create any jobs.









Bruce Bartlett, a former aide to tax-cut advocate Rep. Jack Kemp, says the '81 tax cut made sense: The top individual tax rate was 70 percent — far above the current 39.6 percent — and the economy, unlike the relatively healthy one today, had endured a long era of stagnation.

But Bartlett, an official in the Reagan and George H.W. Bush administrations, has lost faith in tax cuts. In 1986, he notes, the United States slashed the corporate tax rate from 46 percent to 34 percent. Yet wages fell steadily. Likewise, President George W. Bush's tax cuts in 2001 and 2003 produced one of the weakest economic expansions in American history: The Bush tax cuts were still in place when the economy sank into the Great Recession of 2007-2009.




Eh if you begin the whole "housing crisis was only one part" I can counter with industries like automotive sending jobs overseas, technology replacing jobs (which resulted in stagnant wages), debt reaching all time high for average Americans (outside of the housing bubble such student debt and credit cards), the rise of China, western Europe, and other Asian markets, a poor NAFTA deal, immigration, and wealth floating to the top (most of these happened during the Clinton AND Bush administrations).

If we start doing that then we're both wrong as it's really not as simple as we're debating....You lost me with that one...I was trying to keep it simple.

 3 days ago '18        #183
Proffesor X 
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Bailout Bank Bio: Goldman Sachs
Budget & Tax | Analysis
Nov 7, 2008 | 5 min read | Print Article
On October 28, 2008, Goldman Sachs received $10 billion of the first $125 billion from the $700 billion bailout bill. Goldman Sachs is a global bank holding company that works in investment banking, securities and investment management. It was founded in 1869 and made its name for its pioneering work in the use of commercial paper for business entrepreneurs. It joined the New York Stock Exchange in 1896. Last September, Goldman Sachs went from being one of the largest and most profitable U.S. securities firm to becoming the fourth largest bank in the United States, which means they are now regulated from the Federal Reserve.30 Hudson St Goldman Sachs Tower

Considered a titan on Wall Street, Goldman has not been immune to the credit crunch and has had to eliminate thousands of jobs. Its main losses stem from reduced underwriting activity, as well as plunging prices for stocks and other investments.

Goldman has also been well known for its high bonuses and pay. In 2007, Goldman's CEO and two co-presidents were each paid more than $67 million. The company has set aside more than $11 billion during the first nine months of 2008 for bonuses throughout the company. It also has a powerful Alumni list that includes Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson, current bailout czar Neel Kashkari, Governor Jon Corzine (D-NJ) and former Treasury Secretary Robert Rubin. But layoffs and continued losses have put pressure on the company that may lead to senior executives taking as much as a 75% cut in bonuses in 2008, with less senior executives taking a 50% cut. Goldman Sachs repaid the $10 billion in bailout funds in full on June 9, 2009.

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 3 days ago '20        #184
Xiox 
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Didn't Goldman Sachs divi up bonuses to the top hunchos while the ship sank in 2008

 3 days ago '16        #185
AMG2M4  topics gone triple plat - Number 1 spot x6
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 qutaboi225 said
We're 23 trillion in debt and counting...how's that capitalist working out for you? You feeling that trickle down effect in your trailer park. And lighten that n*gga use up Connor. Your bi*ch a*s already got banned before. And lastly, you fu*k a*s n*ggas wouldn't let n*gga come out your mouth in real life. And we BOTH know who's broke here. I've shown my receipts Austin..
You like living in America? Because I do and capitalism is working out for me.

Don't give a fukk about no debts when we da best! Dj Khaled said that so you must know what it means. What other cliches I can use to help you understand this better? How about "It takes money to make money".. or "We printing money over here", or whatever cliche you want to use to explain why we're good...

You see I'm not mad or desperate about wanting to vote in a socialist to give me a handout when everything out here is for the taking...

If you ain't sh*t, I rather you stay that way before that handout will lead you to believe like you better than the next person. In America, you have so many opportunities but if you don't know what to do, you will forever expect others to do it for you. FOH with that peasant bumass mentality. Might as well go beg for change on the corner and try to be an entrepreneur with your intelligence.

For real though you just sound dumb and emotional saying capitalism doesn't work bc you're struggling in life and mad at others for it.

You clearly also emotional about the fact I called you a f*g**t a*s n*gga for photoshopping sus pics of men online for other n*ggas' amusement. I don't condone your gay a*s culture. Get mad. I don't give a fuk.

I also don't know what "receipts" your femine bi*ch a*s is talking about unless you just another alias retarded a*s n*gga following me around that likes to point out I use the word n*gga as if that means anything?

What's your name so next time I can address you by your govt name prior to your surname, which always will be f*g**t a*s n*gga going forward from where I see it. If you still feel a certain way about it, you can stay emotional. Fukk do I care. I'm not the one coming off mad about words, but I do like to talk that sh*t...and it's working on bumass n*ggas who can't think for themselves...or appreciate America for what it is.


Last edited by AMG2M4; 02-14-2020 at 04:47 AM..

 2 days ago '04        #186
qutaboi225  topics gone triple plat - Number 1 spot x6
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 AMG2M4 said

I also don't know what "receipts" your femine bi*ch a*s is talking about unless you just another alias retarded a*s n*gga following me around that likes to point out I use the word n*gga as if that means anything?

What's your name so next time I can address you by your govt name prior to your surname, which always will be f*g**t a*s n*gga going forward from where I see it. If you still feel a certain way about it, you can stay emotional. Fukk do I care. I'm not the one coming off mad about words, but I do like to talk that sh*t...and it's working on bumass n*ggas who can't think for themselves...or appreciate America for what it is.
Get help fam. I dont need any handouts. Most likely your bi*ch a*s typed all this from a trailer. Theres a 100% chance I make more money than you, I'm more educated than you, and have more a*sets than you. You're the one hoping your orange little d*ck fat overlord saves your crumbs from the MOOSLIMS and MESSICANS or "THE BLACKS" as he so often calls them. In reality, his policies help ME, not your broke trailer trash a*s. FOH

 2 days ago '06        #187
Kingme 
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 GrezyNclean said
Eh if you begin the whole "housing crisis was only one part" I can counter with industries like automotive sending jobs overseas, technology replacing jobs (which resulted in stagnant wages), debt reaching all time high for average Americans (outside of the housing bubble such student debt and credit cards), the rise of China, western Europe, and other Asian markets, a poor NAFTA deal, immigration, and wealth floating to the top (most of these happened during the Clinton AND Bush administrations).

If we start doing that then we're both wrong as it's really not as simple as we're debating....You lost me with that one...I was trying to keep it simple.
You should reread the articles I posted and rewatch the videos I posted. Already addressed this fam.

 2 days ago '07        #188
GrezyNclean 
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 Kingme said
You should reread the articles I posted and rewatch the videos I posted. Already addressed this fam.
I did. Again I was trying to make it simple, but if you're going to send me those type of articles then we're going to get into the weeds and neither one of us is 100% correct as the economy is more complicated than that.

Are you saying the economy is NOT complex and the 2007-2009 crisis CAN be understood in one theory (e.g. Trickle Down Economics). If so, then I don't really know what to tell you.

 2 days ago '06        #189
Kingme 
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 GrezyNclean said
I did. Again I was trying to make it simple, but if you're going to send me those type of articles then we're going to get into the weeds and neither one of us is 100% correct as the economy is more complicated than that.

Are you saying the economy is NOT complex and the 2007-2009 crisis CAN be understood in one theory (e.g. Trickle Down Economics). If so, then I don't really know what to tell you.
Trickle Down Economics contributed to the crisis as explained in the sources provided in my posts.

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