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How Can JORDAN Be The GOAT If His COMPETITION Was Playing Plumbers & Mailman ???


 
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 2 months ago '16        #76
BigBallerLavar 679 heat pts679 OP
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 Homer Pimpson said
unathletic mavericks destroyed 3 elite athletes in the finals casual
That was different

The king and his help was adjusting to each other

And Chris Bosh bum a*s didn't step up to the plate making the king do everything until he couldn't do no more he gave his all
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 2 months ago '14        #77
NewLegends 124 heat pts124
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What does that have to do with my point? My entire point was that flopping isnít something new and has been around.

But the difference is MJ was just snatched out the air to the floor
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 2 months ago '17        #78
justin747 42 heat pts42
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 NewLegends said
What does that have to do with my point? My entire point was that flopping isnít something new and has been around.

But the difference is MJ was just snatched out the air to the floor
Flopping definitely was around in the 90s, but if the other team thought you were flopping then they were gonna treat you like the first two gifs. That's why OG NBA players always say ""we're gonna give them a reason to fall down. "
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 2 months ago '13        #79
BLACK MAMBA 56 heat pts56
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I see a lot of deflections and not many answers in this thread


I would love for someone, anyone

to tell me who Jordan guarded that was on the level of

Giannis,
Anthony Davis
Stephen Curry
Kevin Durant
James Harden
Westbrook
Kawai
Prime Melo
Prime Rose
Kobe Bryant
Kyrie

Those are all generational talents

Everybody in this thread is hyping up the 90s defense, but y’all muthafu*kas has to play defense cause y’all were TRASH offensively

Everybody I named is a generational scorer


Name 1 generational scorer or dominant player Jordan faced

I’ll wait
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 2 months ago '17        #80
LegendaryLegend 9 heat pts
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 NewLegends said
I never said he got the call. I wasn’t even making this about Jordan. I was just pointing out that flopping isn’t some new thing.
And I never said flopping was a new thing. As a matter of fact, I never mentioned flopping whatsoever.

My post was about the difference in how the game is officiated in regards to fouls. sh*t that you're ejected and fined for today was a measly foul, not to mention the dirty tactics that were legal and weren't considered a foul whatsoever.

For example, it's clear that you don't understand what the old players mean by "if they would've drove it on me/us, we would've put his a*s on the floor." They're referring to the old rules of basketball. In the 80's and 90's, it was only a foul on the shooter before he releases the ball. Thus, after it's released any contact is legal.

They would elbow guys in the face and neck, they would swipe bodies down to the ground, and they would throw their feet underneath yours so as you're landing they would deliberately injure you and sprain your ankle. Where do you think Jalen Rose got that sh*t from against Kobe in the Finals?

"I would send him to the ground to send him a message - if you want to come down to the paint you have to pay the price with your body."

This isn't even 1/100th of the dirty, legal tactics of 80's/90's defense. Today's NBA is so fu*king soft n*ggaz are literally forced to play defense with their hands behind their backs.

+2   

 2 months ago '17        #81
justin747 42 heat pts42
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 BLACK MAMBA said


I see a lot of deflections and not many answers in this thread


I would love for someone, anyone

to tell me who Jordan guarded that was on the level of

Giannis,
Anthony Davis
Stephen Curry
Kevin Durant
James Harden
Westbrook
Kawai
Prime Melo
Prime Rose
Kobe Bryant
Kyrie

Those are all generational talents

Everybody in this thread is hyping up the 90s defense, but y’all muthafu*kas has to play defense cause y’all were TRASH offensively

Everybody I named is a generational scorer


Name 1 generational scorer or dominant player Jordan faced

I’ll wait
You know goddamn well Lebron's no defense playing a*s don't guard all them n*ggas.

If we talking Jordan's direct comp

Magic
Nique
Bird
Drexler
Glove (best 1 on 1 defender ever)
Starks
Reggie
Tim Hardaway (OG Crossover legend)
Penny
Barkley

Then you had players he played against at different positions:

Dream
Shaq
Malone
Kemp
Admiral
Detlef
Mitch Richmond

I could keep going. You are a young n*gga who never watched any of the legends in the 90s.


You one of those stat nerds. All you care about is who has the highest numbers.... Except finals. Can't bring those up cause Lebron doesn't have the highest numbers.


[pic - click to view]

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 2 months ago '08        #82
HulkColegan 1 heat pts
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If Jordan was playing Plummers and mailmen, LeBron playing metros*xual model punk rock rappers

Now who was playing with men and who is playing with boys?


+3   

 2 months ago '13        #83
BLACK MAMBA 56 heat pts56
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 justin747 said
You know goddamn well Lebron's no defense playing a*s don't guard all them n*ggas.

If we talking Jordan's direct comp

Magic
Nique
Bird
Drexler
Glove (best 1 on 1 defender ever)
Starks
Reggie
Tim Hardaway (OG Crossover legend)
Penny
Barkley

Then you had players he played against at different positions:

Dream
Shaq
Malone
Kemp
Admiral
Detlef
Mitch Richmond

Tim Duncan > Anybody on this list
Kevin Durant > Anyone on this list
Stephen Curry > Anyone on this list
Giannis > anyone on this list
Kawai > anyone on this list


Jordanís contemporaries werenít that good bro :shrug;

Nostalgia sucks, but being logical, there is far more talent in the league right now than ever before, so lebron has definitely faced the toughest competition
-3   

 2 months ago '17        #84
justin747 42 heat pts42
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 BLACK MAMBA said
Tim Duncan > Anybody on this list
Kevin Durant > Anyone on this list
Stephen Curry > Anyone on this list
Giannis > anyone on this list
Kawai > anyone on this list


Jordanís contemporaries werenít that good bro :shrug;

Nostalgia sucks, but being logical, there is far more talent in the league right now than ever before, so lebron has definitely faced the toughest competition
You were either a kid or not born when all this was going down in the 90s so you shouldn't even be speaking on it.

Your GOAT has 6 finals losses. You opinion is invalid


[pic - click to view]




[pic - click to view]

+2   

 2 months ago '16        #85
Frankie Needles 80 heat pts80
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What I don't get about this argument is that guys who ACTUALLY PLAYED IN THE NBA all universally call Jordan the GOAT. It's only guys that got cut from their high school JV team trying to keep this argument going....
+2   

 2 months ago '05        #86
micseles 3 heat pts
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 BLACK MAMBA said
Tim Duncan > Anybody on this list
Kevin Durant > Anyone on this list
Stephen Curry > Anyone on this list
Giannis > anyone on this list
Kawai > anyone on this list


Jordanís contemporaries werenít that good bro :shrug;

Nostalgia sucks, but being logical, there is far more talent in the league right now than ever before, so lebron has definitely faced the toughest competition
What people like you dont understand is that you cant really judge or compare players from totally different eras in that way. There were no players like the ones you named in Jordan's era (there were prototypes that paved the way for players like them) just like there were no players like MJ, Nique, Drexler, David Robinson, Ewing, Rodman, Penny etc in eras before they arrived.

You can only face competition that is available at the time you're in the league. Someday some young idiot is going to look at Lebron and say "There was nobody like this 6'8 260 pound monster in the league, outside of a handful of players he was playing against a bunch of non versital specialty guys and soft big men...and there's no way he could be better than _______(whoever the current dominant player is)"

That's just how sh*t works. Fact of the matter is Jordan and the Bulls dominated everybody they came across once they hit their stride. If Jordan was playing against "plummers" that means he was also playing with "plummers" and somehow he was the one that dominated the era.
+3   

 2 months ago '04        #87
Maroon_Tiger 30 heat pts30
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Fact #2 of why lebron may be a GOAT

 2 months ago '04        #88
TizOnly1 15 heat pts15
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 TaxStoneCooked said
Utah Jazz scored 54 points in a Finals game.
 215Philly said
I never see a response for this. Lebron just had a 50 point game in the finals against the goat team. Jordan biggest competition only scored 50 points for the entire game
You never see a response for this because it's a pretty dumb argument, but I'll bite.

A- Scoring and pace was down in that era compared to the 80's and now. Teams would routinely play games in the 70 point range. That was pretty normal. In the Finals the year before, the Jazz won a game 78-73. sh*t was normal.

So if the 70's are normal.. than 54 isn't THAT crazy. And even if you think it is, this dumbass argument fails to acknowledge...

B- The Bulls were the team that held the Jazz to 54!

How do you sh*t on an era or competition in an attempt to deride a player, instead of crediting that player/team for holding the team to 54?

If the Jazz averaged 54 PPG and somehow made the Finals, there may be a point in that, because that shows that the team couldn't score against anybody, and still made it to the Finals.

All that one game shows is that Mike and the Bulls dominated Utah defensively. How could that possibly be a knock on Jordan? That sh*t makes zero sense.

That's like saying.. "Man.. Lebron's 2016 Finals was actually trash, because he beat the only team to ever lose a 3-1 lead in the Finals. No other team ever did that, so those Warriors must have been garbage".

sh*t makes less than zero sense. How the fu*k do people think this is a good argument?

 MsMarySon said
Iím an old head. Stop with the bullsh*t narrative. The nba was a*s in the 90ís only 4 teams won a ring. Which is the definition of top heavy/lack of parity
More terrible logic.

Parity and league quality have literally zero correlation to each other. If you were to split up a bunch of first graders into teams, I'm sure there would be parity. They're all garbage. Parity doesn't mean sh*t for quality. All it says is that a good number of teams were around equal. It says nothing for where that equal level actually is.

Jordan dominating the 90's only says one (indirect) thing about league quality, and it's that league quality was lower than Michael Jordan's level. That's literally the only logical argument that can be made by looking at parity.

You could say there was no real parity in men's sprinting during Usain Bolt's time.. but that doesn't mean n*ggas were slower runners in that era than in other, more competitive, eras. It just says Usain Bolt was faster than all those n*ggas, but it doesn't mean the OTHER n*ggas are slower than more competitive runners from other eras. They'd prolly smoke runners from those more competitive eras.

Again.. argument makes literally zero logical sense.

 Naga Sadow said
I would love to see these new teams play against the 92 Pistons, 901 Lakers, or any other team that actually played defense. The Pistons would have them in tears.

92 Pistons were trash.

 2 months ago '04        #89
fat_boyy21 329 heat pts329
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My argument against MJ is that he didn't take down championship teams in their prime. The Bulls coming up in the 90's was perfect timing because the beginning of it was the end of an era for LA, Bos, and Det. Outside of the first chip against LA, none of the rest of the finals opponents were championship teams at any point and only Utah made it more than once. If Bron had the same competition people would say it was weak and questionable and that he hadn't climbed a real mountain yet
-1   

 2 months ago '04        #90
ghettofied 411 heat pts411
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 fat_boyy21 said
My argument against MJ is that he didn't take down championship teams in their prime. The Bulls coming up in the 90's was perfect timing because the beginning of it was the end of an era for LA, Bos, and Det. Outside of the first chip against LA, none of the rest of the finals opponents were championship teams at any point and only Utah made it more than once. If Bron had the same competition people would say it was weak and questionable and that he hadn't climbed a real mountain yet
That Pistons team he took down when he made the Finals the first time all had those Pistons in their prime. All below the age of 33.

 2 months ago '15        #91
OG.JMB.159 68 heat pts68
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 TaxStoneCooked said
Utah Jazz scored 54 points in a Finals game.
Remember when the Lakers only scored 68 in the Finals with Kobe and Shaq
+2   

 2 months ago '18        #92
baddie 58 heat pts58
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I’m hearing people talk about the generational talent in the NBA nowadays and how they compare to the guys from Jordan era.

It has me questioning if you n*ggas actually watch basketball.

Like Hakeem wasn’t averaging fu*king 4.0+ blocks a game

Like Shaq wasn’t averaging 29 ppg at 21

Like Rodman wasn’t averging 18 rebounds a game

Like stockton wasn’t bouncing around 15+ a*sists a game

Chuck was like 6’6, but I bet he could bully the sh*t out of Giannis



Chuck was Zion before Zion

 2 months ago '04        #93
fat_boyy21 329 heat pts329
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 ghettofied said
That Pistons team he took down when he made the Finals the first time all had those Pistons in their prime. All below the age of 33.
The following year Det got bounced in the first round so my point still stands
-1   

 2 months ago '07        #94
Dice City 4 heat pts
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 Cuttysark said
Same thread made every month


U n*ggas need to let it go bruh y'all ain't changing nobody minds
+1   

 2 months ago '10        #95
TaylormadeBaby 
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 Supreme Doom said
90s ball wasnt balanced.

Dont care what yall hope. Reality is... Those players relied on physicality to keep a job. Doesnt mean they were skilled enough..


Jordan had plenty of comp. But no team besides 2 had a complete roster in the entire NBA. Shaq n Penny came much later. Sprinkle in Isiah T, Garry P, Reggie M. Who were these other superstars standing in Jordans way. Yall need to go check those teams n players.

Patrick Ewing is a Gawd. Not Starks. And Jon Starks was maybe the only weapon Knicks had to go against the guard..Jordan. Look how those battles went. Decided almost always by the 3rd qrt. It would take Ewing playing almost perfect to jus stand a chance. Yall try to discern that logically.

Patrick Ewing was a tip-in close to beating and eliminating Jordans Bulls. But yall dont care because the Knicks besides that moment were never threats.

Jordan playing or not on that bulls team ..didnt change how lacking other teams were as far as deep roster teams. Yall making shyt up to justify buying his sneakers..

Jordan is Goat for what he has done and accomplished. Lying about what he faced as talent..degrades that literally.
When you don't have skills then you turn to bully ball lol. Players today no doubt could play in that era. Jordan was before his time and so is James..

 2 months ago '18        #96
MsMarySon 
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 TizOnly1 said
You never see a response for this because it's a pretty dumb argument, but I'll bite.

A- Scoring and pace was down in that era compared to the 80's and now. Teams would routinely play games in the 70 point range. That was pretty normal. In the Finals the year before, the Jazz won a game 78-73. sh*t was normal.

So if the 70's are normal.. than 54 isn't THAT crazy. And even if you think it is, this dumbass argument fails to acknowledge...

B- The Bulls were the team that held the Jazz to 54!

How do you sh*t on an era or competition in an attempt to deride a player, instead of crediting that player/team for holding the team to 54?

If the Jazz averaged 54 PPG and somehow made the Finals, there may be a point in that, because that shows that the team couldn't score against anybody, and still made it to the Finals.

All that one game shows is that Mike and the Bulls dominated Utah defensively. How could that possibly be a knock on Jordan? That sh*t makes zero sense.

That's like saying.. "Man.. Lebron's 2016 Finals was actually trash, because he beat the only team to ever lose a 3-1 lead in the Finals. No other team ever did that, so those Warriors must have been garbage".

sh*t makes less than zero sense. How the fu*k do people think this is a good argument?



More terrible logic.

Parity and league quality have literally zero correlation to each other. If you were to split up a bunch of first graders into teams, I'm sure there would be parity. They're all garbage. Parity doesn't mean sh*t for quality. All it says is that a good number of teams were around equal. It says nothing for where that equal level actually is.

Jordan dominating the 90's only says one (indirect) thing about league quality, and it's that league quality was lower than Michael Jordan's level. That's literally the only logical argument that can be made by looking at parity.

You could say there was no real parity in men's sprinting during Usain Bolt's time.. but that doesn't mean n*ggas were slower runners in that era than in other, more competitive, eras. It just says Usain Bolt was faster than all those n*ggas, but it doesn't mean the OTHER n*ggas are slower than more competitive runners from other eras. They'd prolly smoke runners from those more competitive eras.

Again.. argument makes literally zero logical sense.



92 Pistons were trash.
My statement on the lack of parity was a knock toward the league and itís lack of ability for others to win chips and not MJ. Iím stunned by how you tried to dissect that



I watched ball all my life. Itís my favorite sport. Iím a die hard Lakers fan over 25 years. Thereís no Goat per se but there is definitely a threshold weíre people get the honorable mention.

(In order of legend status yr)
Wilt, Russell then Kareem and MJ, Kobe and Lebron is the latest person to throw his name in the conversation!!!!




 2 months ago '13        #97
BLACK MAMBA 56 heat pts56
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 micseles said
What people like you dont understand is that you cant really judge or compare players from totally different eras in that way. There were no players like the ones you named in Jordan's era (there were prototypes that paved the way for players like them) just like there were no players like MJ, Nique, Drexler, David Robinson, Ewing, Rodman, Penny etc in eras before they arrived.

You can only face competition that is available at the time you're in the league. Someday some young idiot is going to look at Lebron and say "There was nobody like this 6'8 260 pound monster in the league, outside of a handful of players he was playing against a bunch of non versital specialty guys and soft big men...and there's no way he could be better than _______(whoever the current dominant player is)"

That's just how sh*t works. Fact of the matter is Jordan and the Bulls dominated everybody they came across once they hit their stride. If Jordan was playing against "plummers" that means he was also playing with "plummers" and somehow he was the one that dominated the era.


Terrible logic, and itís called context


Jordan didnít dominate when he was facing competition

Aka the pistons, and Celtics


I never said he was facing plumbers, he just wasnít facing anyone nearly as talented as him whereas Lebron is facing equally as talented players


Like I said name 1 person Jordan matched up against in the finals on the level of

Kevin Durant
Stephen Curry
Kawai
James Harden
Westbrook


You canít and even if you could, Jordan never had to guard the best player on the team


Jordan played on the most talented team in a waters down league, while being the best player in the league

 2 months ago '05        #98
micseles 3 heat pts
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 BLACK MAMBA said
Terrible logic, and it’s called context


Jordan didn’t dominate when he was facing competition

Aka the pistons, and Celtics


I never said he was facing plumbers, he just wasn’t facing anyone nearly as talented as him whereas Lebron is facing equally as talented players


Like I said name 1 person Jordan matched up against in the finals on the level of

Kevin Durant
Stephen Curry
Kawai
James Harden
Westbrook


You can’t and even if you could, Jordan never had to guard the best player on the team


Jordan played on the most talented team in a waters down league, while being the best player in the league
Jordan didn't "dominate" when YOU say he was facing competition. He was still facing competition when he was winning titles, he was just that damn good. Lets not act like Lebron didn't have to wait for a certain big 3 in Beantown to hit the backside of their better days before he got them up outta there. Just to be clear, that Bulls team was only as talented as it was because of who Jordan was. You take him off that team and the Pacers and Knicks play ping pong with that conference until Orlando rises to prominance and Scottie Pippen becomes another Star that "just couldn't get over the hump".

News flash bro, Lebron is bigger, faster, stronger and smarter than 90% of the players he's come across in his career. Lebron has faced talented players but nobody on his level since he hit his stride just like Jordan.

AGAIN....Jordan never faced players like those guys because they didnt exist back then. But he did face players like Nique, Drexler, Hardaway and all the young guns on his way out that Lebron was facing on his way in.

The notion that Jordan never had to guard the best player on the opposing team is BS too. There's articles out there that show what all the top stars of the day did against him and it wasn't pretty for those guys.

Like I said, someday some young idiot is gonna come along and look at Lebron and watch some Youtube videos and come to the same dumb a*s conclusion that some of these idiots are trying to come to about Jordan. It's a cycle bro. Best thing to do is stop trying to compare and enjoy your particular era because the next era/generation is gonna try their hardest to completely discredit it in order to big up their new guy.


Last edited by micseles; 01-12-2019 at 07:28 PM..

 2 months ago '04        #99
TizOnly1 15 heat pts15
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 BLACK MAMBA said
Terrible logic, and itís called context


Jordan didnít dominate when he was facing competition

Aka the pistons, and Celtics


I never said he was facing plumbers, he just wasnít facing anyone nearly as talented as him whereas Lebron is facing equally as talented players


Like I said name 1 person Jordan matched up against in the finals on the level of

Kevin Durant
Stephen Curry
Kawai
James Harden
Westbrook


You canít and even if you could, Jordan never had to guard the best player on the team


Jordan played on the most talented team in a waters down league, while being the best player in the league
Jordan lost to the Celtics and Pistons back before he had a team. Once he had a team, he didn't lose.

It just so happens that Jordan getting a squad happened to coincide with the time that the Celtics, Lakers and Pistons were about done. People try to place causation there and say he only won because they were done, when it could just as easily be that it was just a coincidence, instead of THE reason for wins at that point.

Also Clyde >>> Westbrook

 2 months ago '13        #100
BLACK MAMBA 56 heat pts56
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still waiting for Jordan facing someone as good as KD in the finals

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