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Travel or clean?


 
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 2 days ago '05        #2
Colin Cowherd 222 heat pts222
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Travel
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 2 days ago '05        #3
THEINFAMOUS 21 heat pts21
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Both clean.
+4   

 2 days ago '13        #4
EZ Green 46 heat pts46
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Travel
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 2 days ago '05        #5
Colin Cowherd 222 heat pts222
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 EZ Green said
Travel
To see men

 2 days ago '10        #6
Nautilus O 19 heat pts19
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I give up.

When I watch basketball now it’s like watching the luchadors in the attitude era.

All that flipping and dipping and reversal sh*t don’t even be going down in the main event at Summerslam.
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 2 days ago '04        #7
Fresh Beats 2 heat pts
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Clean.

Rule 9, Section XIII, Item (b): A player who receives the ball while he is progressing or upon completion of a dribble, may take two steps in coming to a stop, passing or shooting the ball. A player who receives the ball while he is progressing must release the ball to start his dribble before his second step. The first step occurs when a foot, or both feet, touch the floor after gaining control of the ball.
+1   

 2 days ago '13        #8
EZ Green 46 heat pts46
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 Colin Cowherd said
To see men
Yikes

 2 days ago '17        #9
SPdaGOAT 36 heat pts36
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I feel bad for the homies back in the day that worked hard to have impeccable footwork. All them hours could’ve went to practicing this bullsh*t.
+5   

 2 days ago '04        #10
TizOnly1 27 heat pts27
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 Fresh Beats said
Clean.

Rule 9, Section XIII, Item (b): A player who receives the ball while he is progressing or upon completion of a dribble, may take two steps in coming to a stop, passing or shooting the ball. A player who receives the ball while he is progressing must release the ball to start his dribble before his second step. The first step occurs when a foot, or both feet, touch the floor after gaining control of the ball.
But both those moves were three steps from their last dribble.

Also notice how the ACTUAL rulebook says absolutely nothing about a "gather step". You get two steps, period.

Those are both travels.
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 2 days ago '06        #11
FreeBigga 215 heat pts215
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that Alexander-Walker step back was filthy
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 2 days ago '05        #12
Panopticon 58 heat pts58
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 TizOnly1 said
But both those moves were three steps from their last dribble.

Also notice how the ACTUAL rulebook says absolutely nothing about a "gather step". You get two steps, period.

Those are both travels.
I just had this discussion and agreed they were both okay moves. Specifically for the second one, if you're going to the hole and pick the ball up (someone said to me), you get 2 steps to finish. So dude did the same thing, just backward.

I agreed.

But then I saw the rulebook quote, and your post. And of course at my core, since I'm old school with it, I feel like all this sh*t is travels, though I get the gather sh*t, and understand the theory behind why people purport that it isn't walking.

But looking at the rule, it says "after gaining control of the ball". Well what can that mean? We a*sume that means grabbing it with both hands. Like you don't really have control of it until you pick it up with both hands. But I'm just kind of going through thoughts, trying to see if that holds up.

So what does gaining control mean. It can't just mean 2 hands, because obviously guys like Mike could just palm the ball and gain control of it. So that eliminates "gaining control" meaning solely picking the ball up with both hands.

So a*suming you are not palming it, what other way could you gain control of the ball with one hand. Well if you were just dribbling with one hand and then let the ball come up and you just pinned it between your elbow and hip like you were about to walk away with it, that would obviously be gaining control, even though you weren't even using even one hand. So gaining control doesn't even have to mean 1 hand.

So then gaining control would seem to be related to stopping the ball from its natural bouncing motion that it would continue to have if you didn't get under the ball with your hands or hand, or pin it against your hip/elbow.

So therefore the gather step is bullsh*t, because if the ball does not bounce on the ground again, that means you gained control after the ball's last bounce. Therefore that last bounce was the start of your 2 steps.

So generally, these moves would be travels.

Now the next question is, how hard is that to officiate in real time?
+1   

 2 days ago '04        #13
TizOnly1 27 heat pts27
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 Panopticon said
I just had this discussion and agreed they were both okay moves. Specifically for the second one, if you're going to the hole and pick the ball up (someone said to me), you get 2 steps to finish. So dude did the same thing, just backward.

I agreed.

But then I saw the rulebook quote, and your post. And of course at my core, since I'm old school with it, I feel like all this sh*t is travels, though I get the gather sh*t, and understand the theory behind why people purport that it isn't walking.

But looking at the rule, it says "after gaining control of the ball". Well what can that mean? We a*sume that means grabbing it with both hands. Like you don't really have control of it until you pick it up with both hands. But I'm just kind of going through thoughts, trying to see if that holds up.

So what does gaining control mean. It can't just mean 2 hands, because obviously guys like Mike could just palm the ball and gain control of it. So that eliminates "gaining control" meaning solely picking the ball up with both hands.

So a*suming you are not palming it, what other way could you gain control of the ball with one hand. Well if you were just dribbling with one hand and then let the ball come up and you just pinned it between your elbow and hip like you were about to walk away with it, that would obviously be gaining control, even though you weren't even using even one hand. So gaining control doesn't even have to mean 1 hand.

So then gaining control would seem to be related to stopping the ball from its natural bouncing motion that it would continue to have if you didn't get under the ball with your hands or hand, or pin it against your hip/elbow.

So therefore the gather step is bullsh*t, because if the ball does not bounce on the ground again, that means you gained control after the ball's last bounce. Therefore that last bounce was the start of your 2 steps.

So generally, these moves would be travels.

Now the next question is, how hard is that to officiate in real time?
I agree that there's a level of subjectivity to it, but I don't think it's about how hard it is to officiate, bc you don't hear the league saying "Oh we missed these calls.. we're gonna do better". Instead, you hear the refs and the league ALWAYS justifying and stretching the rules out.

The league made up "crab dribble" for LeBron. They contorted themselves every which way to let Harden get away with travels on every play. The league just continues to say fu*k it, and let dudes do whatever they want.
+1   

 2 days ago '04        #14
Fresh Beats 2 heat pts
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 TizOnly1 said
But both those moves were three steps from their last dribble.

Also notice how the ACTUAL rulebook says absolutely nothing about a "gather step". You get two steps, period.

Those are both travels.
The first one looked clean because the foot didn't look like it came down the 3rd time. The second looks iffy but most refs will probably give it to him because he shot once the foot came down.
+1   

 2 days ago '05        #15
Panopticon 58 heat pts58
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 TizOnly1 said
I agree that there's a level of subjectivity to it, but I don't think it's about how hard it is to officiate, bc you don't hear the league saying "Oh we missed these calls.. we're gonna do better". Instead, you hear the refs and the league ALWAYS justifying and stretching the rules out.

The league made up "crab dribble" for LeBron. They contorted themselves every which way to let Harden get away with travels on every play. The league just continues to say fu*k it, and let dudes do whatever they want.
I dunno man. I saw Derrick Rose do that crab dribble also, and guys did that for years before Lebron. Where you basically cover up while you take your 2 steps - to protect the ball, then open back up.

But back to these stepbacks and sidesteps, I think the league tries to pick and choose what it allows. Remember how the crossover morphed into what AI was doing, then they started calling that a carry.

So if they want to allow this stuff, they can, but my preference would be hey - just adjust the rulebook so it's clear. Because yeah they aren't issuing after game reports saying they missed a call here and there, but that's because it not being considered a travel is predicated (in my estimation) on all of us operationalizing "gaining control" as being "picked up with both hands".

 2 days ago '05        #16
Panopticon 58 heat pts58
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Easier to rewatch the coby one on youtube because you can change the speed setting to .25, maximize the screen and easily see that he gains control of the ball with his right hand, then takes 4 steps (2 with his left, 1 + drag with his right).


[video - click to view]

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 2 days ago '05        #17
Panopticon 58 heat pts58
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[video - click to view]


Likewise, slow it to .25 at 1:45 - looks clean - gains control with the left, 2 steps behind the line.

 2 days ago '06        #18
tdc320 
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Dribble is still live until you pick it up. This is how they get the extra step. He didn't pick his dribble up until he side stepped.

 2 days ago '04        #19
TizOnly1 27 heat pts27
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 Panopticon said
I dunno man. I saw Derrick Rose do that crab dribble also, and guys did that for years before Lebron. Where you basically cover up while you take your 2 steps - to protect the ball, then open back up.

But back to these stepbacks and sidesteps, I think the league tries to pick and choose what it allows. Remember how the crossover morphed into what AI was doing, then they started calling that a carry.

So if they want to allow this stuff, they can, but my preference would be hey - just adjust the rulebook so it's clear. Because yeah they aren't issuing after game reports saying they missed a call here and there, but that's because it not being considered a travel is predicated (in my estimation) on all of us operationalizing "gaining control" as being "picked up with both hands".
I agree that they need to just change the rulebook. It bothers the fu*k outta me that people try to argue me down about "gather steps" and all sorts of other nonsense that just isn't in the rulebook at all.

If the league wants gather steps, crab dribbles, and double stepbacks to be a thing, cool. But then say it. Make it official.
+1   

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