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Joaquin Phoenix Says Joker Controversy Says More About the People Watching the Movie


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 2 weeks ago '18        #1
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Joaquin Phoenix Says Joker Controversy Says More About the People Watching the Movie
 

 



"Joker is in the middle of scooping up awards, but there are still numerous conversations about the controversy surrounding the movie popping up. On 60 Minutes this weekend, Joaquin Phoenix talked to Anderson Cooper about a number of topics. Of course, the topic turned to the movie’s reception and how the depiction of mental illness and societal issues played with critics. But, despite the swirling conversations around the film, the staggering box office for Joker shows that audiences were much more accepting of the narrative. Media controversies regularly come up when talking about the film in interviews. The cast and the director have tried to distance themselves from any and all strange stories that go alongside the film. But, that has been hard to do. For, the movie’s star, their reaction to the film says more about them than it does about his work.

“I’ve described it as, like, a Rorschach Test,” Phoenix began. “It says something about the person viewing it and what they think that it's about. That's really rare for a film to kind of have that effect on people. So in some ways, I welcomed it.”


Even with that said, Phillips has had to talk about how the criticism leveled at his movie. Joker is not a welcoming film at all, and the director said that’s by design.

“We didn’t make the movie to push buttons,” Phillips said to The Wrap. “I literally described to Joaquin at one point in those three months as like, ‘Look at this as a way to sneak a real movie in the studio system under the guise of a comic book film’. It wasn’t, ‘We want to glorify this behavior.’ It was literally like ‘Let’s make a real movie with a real budget and we’ll call it f******* Joker’. That’s what it was.”

"Gun violence in our society is a critical issue, and we extend our deepest sympathy to all victims and families impacted by these tragedies," the statement began. Our company has a long history of donating to victims of violence, including Aurora, and in recent weeks, our parent company joined other business leaders to call on policymakers to enact bi-partisan legislation to address this epidemic. At the same time, Warner Bros. believes that one of the functions of storytelling is to provoke difficult conversations around complex issues. Make no mistake: neither the fictional character Joker, nor the film, is an endorsement of real-world violence of any kind. It is not the intention of the film, the filmmakers or the studio to hold this character up as a hero."


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 2 weeks ago '10        #2
Bandito 
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After my second viewing, I'm going to say at least half the movie didn't really happen and was all in Arthur's head. I don't even think he was bullied as much as the audience was shown to believe. I don't think Randall gave him the gun in the locker room like what was shown or the Wall Street guys messed with him on the subway. I don't think anyone cared enough about Arthur Fleck to even fu*k with him like that. Even the scene with the kids stealing his sign at the beginning wasn't real.
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 2 weeks ago '12        #3
acefresh 
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 Bandito said
After my second viewing, I'm going to say at least half the movie didn't really happen and was all in Arthur's head. I don't even think he was bullied as much as the audience was shown to believe. I don't think Randall gave him the gun in the locker room like what was shown or the Wall Street guys messed with him on the subway. I don't think anyone cared enough about Arthur Fleck to even fu*k with him like that. Even the scene with the kids stealing his sign at the beginning wasn't real.
Haven’t watched a thorough 2nd time yet but what made me think of this possibility of a lot of it being in his head is the scene where he just storms into his fine a*s neighbor’s spot and presumably fu*ks her. sh*t doesn’t make sense. Cuz later he’s in her spot and she’s terrified. Def gonna watch that sh*t a few times more at least to really absorb it all.
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 2 weeks ago '10        #4
Bandito 
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 acefresh said
Haven’t watched a thorough 2nd time yet but what made me think of this possibility of a lot of it being in his head is the scene where he just storms into his fine a*s neighbor’s spot and presumably fu*ks her. sh*t doesn’t make sense. Cuz later he’s in her spot and she’s terrified. Def gonna watch that sh*t a few times more at least to really absorb it all.
There's little clues here and there. There's the scenes with his neighbor. Also, early on when he's watching Murray's show with his mom and he has a delusion about being in the audience and called to the stage.

Going back to the gun. We see Randall giving him the gun in the locker room. Later, when he gets fired for taking the gun to the kids party, his boss tells him that Randall told him Arthur had tried to buy a gun from a few weeks before. He calls Arthur a liar and a weirdo. When Arthur goes back to clean his locker, his co-workers are asking him about the gun and Arthur says he still needs to pay Randall for it. Randall gets mad and tells Arthur to stop lying on him.

That all happens over several different scenes. We can pretty much take away from it all that Arthur didn't get the gun from Randall. That scene we saw earlier didn't happen. But now Arthur (in his head) has someone he can blame for his own fu*k up for taking the gun to the kids party. Randall. He was wronged by Randall and that is his excuse for k*lling him later. Randall didn't do anything to him. He even came over to comfort him when his mother dies. Which makes what Arthur says to Gary before he lets him go straight bullsh*t.

If you re-watch it. I would try and look for holes in any instance where Arthur is wronged by somebody. I think he is just like his boss said he was. A liar and a weirdo. He creates these scenarios to excuse how much of a fu*k up he is. It always someone else doing something to him. Never his own fault.
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 2 weeks ago '07        #5
FeedTheBeast 
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 acefresh said
Haven’t watched a thorough 2nd time yet but what made me think of this possibility of a lot of it being in his head is the scene where he just storms into his fine a*s neighbor’s spot and presumably fu*ks her. sh*t doesn’t make sense. Cuz later he’s in her spot and she’s terrified. Def gonna watch that sh*t a few times more at least to really absorb it all.
Huh?? The movie shows that his relationship with her was all in his head. I think thats the only part that wasnt real. People just want to analyze this way too deep. Its a great movie there are some hidden or subliminal themes but I dont think its as complex as everyone making it.
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 2 weeks ago '07        #6
FeedTheBeast 
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 Bandito said
There's little clues here and there. There's the scenes with his neighbor. Also, early on when he's watching Murray's show with his mom and he has a delusion about being in the audience and called to the stage.

Going back to the gun. We see Randall giving him the gun in the locker room. Later, when he gets fired for taking the gun to the kids party, his boss tells him that Randall told him Arthur had tried to buy a gun from a few weeks before. He calls Arthur a liar and a weirdo. When Arthur goes back to clean his locker, his co-workers are asking him about the gun and Arthur says he still needs to pay Randall for it. Randall gets mad and tells Arthur to stop lying on him.

That all happens over several different scenes. We can pretty much take away from it all that Arthur didn't get the gun from Randall. That scene we saw earlier didn't happen. But now Arthur (in his head) has someone he can blame for his own fu*k up for taking the gun to the kids party. Randall. He was wronged by Randall and that is his excuse for k*lling him later. Randall didn't do anything to him. He even came over to comfort him when his mother dies. Which makes what Arthur says to Gary before he lets him go straight bullsh*t.

If you re-watch it. I would try and look for holes in any instance where Arthur is wronged by somebody. I think he is just like his boss said he was. A liar and a weirdo. He creates these scenarios to excuse how much of a fu*k up he is. It always someone else doing something to him. Never his own fault.
I think his delusions were made pretty clear during the movie. I dont think his interactions with Randall were part of that.
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 2 weeks ago '10        #7
Bandito 
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 FeedTheBeast said
I think his delusions were made pretty clear during the movie. I dont think his interactions with Randall were part of that.
I'm not so sure about that. I think the ones that are made clear are to lay the foundation that you can't trust anything from Arthur's perspective. There are other things that are used to suggest other scenes didn't happen like they were shown. But are not so blatant.

Like the scene with the kids taking his sign. The next day at his job, Arthur is called into Hoyt's office. Hoyt says he got a call from the guy he was working for and he said Arthur just walked off with his sign. Arthur blurts out that he was jumped. Hoyt looks at him like he is crazy and doesn't know what he is talking about. You going to wait to the next day to tell your boss what happened? I think Arthur just fu*ked off on the job and the kids were the excuse he created. Remember, in the scene prior to that his co-workers are talking about Arthur getting jumped. The first time we see Randall he walks into the locker room and tells Arthur he heard about him getting jumped. How did Randall know about Arthur getting jumped? His boss doesn't even know. Who did Arthur tell he was jumped that would tell Randall? This even gives more creedance to that whole conversation with Randall (where he gives Arthur the gun) not being real.

If you believe in this premise. You can even say the interaction with the Wall Street guys on the subway probably happened different than was shown and they didn't really fu*k with him.

The reason why I like this theory is it means all the murders Arthur committed didn't have a reason.

The Wall Street guys
Randall
His mom
Murray

None of them did anything to Arthur. It gets rid of this whole society created Joker by being mean to him narrative. No. Arthur is mentally ill, off his meds and has created a whole delusional narrative in his head about how he has been wronged by society and uses that as an excuse to k*ll. Arthur having actual reasons to do everything he did is a little too clean to me.

Now I may be talking out my a*s and overanalyzing it. I don't think so though. None of this stuff is too deep and I started catching it on only my 2nd watch 2 weeks after my 1st time seeing it.
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 2 weeks ago '05        #8
Tha Boss 
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 Bandito said
I'm not so sure about that. I think the ones that are made clear are to lay the foundation that you can't trust anything from Arthur's perspective. There are other things that are used to suggest other scenes didn't happen like they were shown. But are not so blatant.

Like the scene with the kids taking his sign. The next day at his job, Arthur is called into Hoyt's office. Hoyt says he got a call from the guy he was working for and he said Arthur just walked off with his sign. Arthur blurts out that he was jumped. Hoyt looks at him like he is crazy and doesn't know what he is talking about. You going to wait to the next day to tell your boss what happened? I think Arthur just fu*ked off on the job and the kids were the excuse he created. Remember, in the scene prior to that his co-workers are talking about Arthur getting jumped. The first time we see Randall he walks into the locker room and tells Arthur he heard about him getting jumped. How did Randall know about Arthur getting jumped? His boss doesn't even know. Who did Arthur tell he was jumped that would tell Randall? This even gives more creedance to that whole conversation with Randall (where he gives Arthur the gun) not being real.

If you believe in this premise. You can even say the interaction with the Wall Street guys on the subway probably happened different than was shown and they didn't really fu*k with him.

The reason why I like this theory is it means all the murders Arthur committed didn't have a reason.

The Wall Street guys
Randall
His mom
Murray

None of them did anything to Arthur. It gets rid of this whole society created Joker by being mean to him narrative. No. Arthur is mentally ill, off his meds and has created a whole delusional narrative in his head about how he has been wronged by society and uses that as an excuse to k*ll. Arthur having actual reasons to do everything he did is a little too clean to me.

Now I may be talking out my a*s and overanalyzing it. I don't think so though. None of this stuff is too deep and I started catching it on only my 2nd watch 2 weeks after my 1st time seeing it.

makes a ton of sense. Why would ten walls treat fellas c*m wit him like that, why would the lady on snap on him about messing with the kid when the kid was doing the messing with Arthur, if Randall was really a POS why did he come check on him about his mom and then even at the apartment as he got k*lled, how would he know about the sequence with Bruce and his parents getting k*lled, I think you hit the nail on the head
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 2 weeks ago '04        #9
Menace718 
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I like the reasoning that a lot more didn’t really happen than what was shown on the surface of the movie being blatant to say what was a delusion. Everyone knows the Joker character in any presentation is out of his mind and criminally insane right? So wouldn’t his behavior be explained better by him doing all the fu*ked up stuff he does just be because he isn’t reasonable and people didn’t actually make him that way?

Wouldn’t it lend to the comment he made as an actor saying “the controversy says more about the people watching it than the actual movie itself”? I think he would be more agreeable with viewers if this was truly a movie about him being bullied in reality and turning to what he did as the Joker character. I think more people should prop dude above for coming up with his analysis cause I believe he is right and it looks that way to me as well.
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 2 weeks ago '04        #10
JFamis 
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I think pretty much all the sh*t of people treating him well or worshipping him was fake... especially when he's arrested and they break him out and worship him in the street.
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 2 weeks ago '07        #11
FeedTheBeast 
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 Bandito said
I'm not so sure about that. I think the ones that are made clear are to lay the foundation that you can't trust anything from Arthur's perspective. There are other things that are used to suggest other scenes didn't happen like they were shown. But are not so blatant.

Like the scene with the kids taking his sign. The next day at his job, Arthur is called into Hoyt's office. Hoyt says he got a call from the guy he was working for and he said Arthur just walked off with his sign. Arthur blurts out that he was jumped. Hoyt looks at him like he is crazy and doesn't know what he is talking about. You going to wait to the next day to tell your boss what happened? I think Arthur just fu*ked off on the job and the kids were the excuse he created. Remember, in the scene prior to that his co-workers are talking about Arthur getting jumped. The first time we see Randall he walks into the locker room and tells Arthur he heard about him getting jumped. How did Randall know about Arthur getting jumped? His boss doesn't even know. Who did Arthur tell he was jumped that would tell Randall? This even gives more creedance to that whole conversation with Randall (where he gives Arthur the gun) not being real.

If you believe in this premise. You can even say the interaction with the Wall Street guys on the subway probably happened different than was shown and they didn't really fu*k with him.

The reason why I like this theory is it means all the murders Arthur committed didn't have a reason.

The Wall Street guys
Randall
His mom
Murray

None of them did anything to Arthur. It gets rid of this whole society created Joker by being mean to him narrative. No. Arthur is mentally ill, off his meds and has created a whole delusional narrative in his head about how he has been wronged by society and uses that as an excuse to k*ll. Arthur having actual reasons to do everything he did is a little too clean to me.

Now I may be talking out my a*s and overanalyzing it. I don't think so though. None of this stuff is too deep and I started catching it on only my 2nd watch 2 weeks after my 1st time seeing it.
Props bruh....logical analysis. But what about the bruises and the limp?? I think another part that kind of supports your theory is how he bombed at the comedy club but in his mind he k*lled it lol.
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 2 weeks ago '04        #12
skillahmang 
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sh*t gotta be real for there to be a sequel and him be the joker.

What he just gonna be tormenting Gotham all in his head?
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 2 weeks ago '18        #13
Lord God  topics gone triple plat - Number 1 spot x1
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 JFamis said
I think pretty much all the sh*t of people treating him well or worshipping him was fake... especially when he's arrested and they break him out and worship him in the street.
sigh

Joker has a significant sycophantic underworld of followers willing to do anything for him. It's not some illusion.

 2 weeks ago '04        #14
JFamis 
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 Lord God said
sigh

Joker has a significant sycophantic underworld of followers willing to do anything for him. It's not some illusion.
Take that sigh and fu*k yourself with it. Both Todd and Joaquin said most that sh*t is up to your own interpretation. Several times throughout the movie we see him fantasizing about being worshipped by some person (like the early scene with Murray), or him lying about someone telling him his stand-up comedy was ready for the big time only for it to not be real or a lie... this isn’t the comics... there’s a very good chance that whole sequence in the cop car was part of his delusions. At least I hope so, because it was kinda fu*king stupid if it wasn’t.
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 2 weeks ago '18        #15
Lord God  topics gone triple plat - Number 1 spot x1
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 JFamis said
Take that sigh and fu*k yourself with it. Both Todd and Joaquin said most that sh*t is up to your own interpretation. Several times throughout the movie we see him fantasizing about being worshipped by some person (like the early scene with Murray), or him lying about someone telling him his stand-up comedy was ready for the big time only for it to not be real or a lie... this isn’t the comics... there’s a very good chance that whole sequence in the cop car was part of his delusions. At least I hope so, because it was kinda fu*king stupid if it wasn’t.
where do y'all draw the line then? Or do you? Y'all don't realize you can argue the entire movie was all imagination? It was all a dream he had while being knocked in the head by his sign?

I would almost understand the wish to sound deep if it weren't so sad lol

 2 weeks ago '04        #16
JFamis 
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 Lord God said
where do y'all draw the line then? Or do you? Y'all don't realize you can argue the entire movie was all imagination? It was all a dream he had while being knocked in the head by his sign?

I would almost understand the wish to sound deep if it weren't so sad lol
If that’s how you interpret it... Things I think were imagined: his first appearance on Murray (which is revealed), the relationship with Zazie Beetz (which is revealed), his suicide attempt in the fridge (which is hinted at), people dressing in clown sh*t worshipping him (which the other reveals of those things being delusions I think setup for that possibility)...

Not sure if you’re accusing me or the filmmakers at attempting to sound deep... I don’t think doing this is really that deep. It’s something sort of plucked from past Joker stories of him being an unreliable narrator. I don’t think it’s meant to be taken as “deep” at all...

 2 weeks ago '16        #17
fam 
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yall are giving todd phillips way too much credit - any inconsistency or ambiguity in the script is just the result of bad and lazy writing
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 2 weeks ago '18        #18
Twrecz 
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’ It was literally like ‘Let’s make a real movie with a real budget and we’ll call it f******* Joker’. That’s what it was.”
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 2 weeks ago '11        #19
Tony Franks 
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Damn I gotta watch it again. I didnt think about all the other things may not have happened. That may change my opinion of the movie from decent to dope.

I was pissed at Zazie's character for a while till i realized Joker was crazy. Like yelling at her stupid a*s "bi*ch you got a kid" lol.

Then later I watched Gemini man and was yelling at the Lady who was going on a date with will. Like "What is up with these women" just going along wit crazy sh*t" lol. Then of course you find out why she even entertains Will after his first outburst.

 2 weeks ago '05        #20
Tha Boss 
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 JFamis said
I think pretty much all the sh*t of people treating him well or worshipping him was fake... especially when he's arrested and they break him out and worship him in the street.
Right like why would they worship him when everyone loved murray
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 2 weeks ago '19        #21
Von Doom 
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Now y'all reaching.

I mean I'm with a sidebar on theory... Always about that hypothesis to great story telling.

But this goes back to every comment I've ever made about these movies.

Fans do so much emotional investing but aren't honest about that. This Joker movie was great for its deep dive into mental instability.

But the view of what was reality to Joker was made clear as day. The extra shyt y'all mentioning is a red flag. Because y'all are excusing the style of story telling and inserting weird connotations into parts of the movie.

Society in the movie was as real as it gets. Mayo privilege isn't just about aggressive RACISM towards Blacks. It's about everyone else who is caught up in the darker more bad intentioned aspects of society.

But I mean... I'd like to see how they can incorporate Batman into this kind of film. That's the real question. Otherwise if it becomes a stand alone... I'm gonna take points off due to a huge lack of creativity.
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 1 week ago '04        #22
JFamis 
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 Von Doom said
Now y'all reaching.

I mean I'm with a sidebar on theory... Always about that hypothesis to great story telling.

But this goes back to every comment I've ever made about these movies.

Fans do so much emotional investing but aren't honest about that. This Joker movie was great for its deep dive into mental instability.

But the view of what was reality to Joker was made clear as day. The extra shyt y'all mentioning is a red flag. Because y'all are excusing the style of story telling and inserting weird connotations into parts of the movie.

Society in the movie was as real as it gets. Mayo privilege isn't just about aggressive RACISM towards Blacks. It's about everyone else who is caught up in the darker more bad intentioned aspects of society.

But I mean... I'd like to see how they can incorporate Batman into this kind of film. That's the real question. Otherwise if it becomes a stand alone... I'm gonna take points off due to a huge lack of creativity.
Except Joaquin has said a big part of why he did the movie is because it isn’t a typical movie where the audience is presented with facts but possibilities.
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 1 week ago '04        #23
1000bluntz 
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Everything in the movie really happened except his made up relationship with that hot chick from Atlanta, that’s actually pretty damn clear.
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